duncanjwitham

2 minutes ago, Andicis said:

He struggles to play that formation based on the very few minutes in which the whole team wasn't playing well in that formation? 

It's more than a few minutes, he played the whole game against Blackpool there and looked completely lost for one.  Yeah it's still early days, but even if he does figure it out, it still made no sense to sign him to play in a position he's never played before, or to sign him purely for games where we wanted to play a back 4.  

3 minutes ago, Andicis said:

You are taking a quote that seems like a self deprecating joke at face value?

It definitely wasn't a joke, it was a direct response to a question about the change in formation.  He made it very clear that he didn't believe formations really mattered that much.  And it's not like I'm going purely on that, literally everything he's done while he's been here has backed it up.

4 minutes ago, Andicis said:

I agree that he would like to play a 3 at the back formation, however it isn't like he signed players that are exclusively for that formation and can't be adapted to play in another way. Especially with Elder which you reference him previously exclusively playing in a back 4. Therefore it seems an odd critique to say he bought players specifically for a formation they can't play when you acknowledge yourself with Elder that they can certainly play in a different formation. 

That's the whole point though.  If we're supposedly restricted on what we can spend, you can't be going out and spending presumably decent wages on Elder, when he struggles to play in the formation you want to use as your main formation for the season.

5 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Elder and Bradley are entirely capable of playing in a 4. You state those players were specifically signed for a 3-5-2, has Warne ever suggested he was only going to play 3-5-2? Isn't there an entirely credible line of thinking that he was probably also considering 4 at the back for specific games if needed. 

Finally, I don't think Warne is just "chucking players in a formation and hoping it works". He has probably tried a lot of these formations and ways of playing in training, and it then hasn't worked in the match. And then he switched shapes to reflect this, and of course you'll write it off as him getting lucky or whichever dismissive line to choose to use, however he is adapting to do exactly what you claim he doesn't - to get the best from the players he has. 

It's pretty obvious he really wants to mainly play a back 3 - we used it as soon as he took over, we switched back to it several times last season, we played it all through preseason and started the first 4 games of the season in it. And you don't go and make 2 of your highest profile summer signings just to play in a system you want for the odd game - those 2 were clearly signed to play in that 352 system IMO.

I think Elder is definitely more suited to a back 4, that's really all he's ever played in, so if we stay with the back 4, he should be okay. But I don't have any faith that Warne doesn't just go back to a 3 as soon as he can.  The issue with Bradley isn't really due to a 3 or a 4, it's making sure his lack of pace and slight lack of composure doesn't get exposed.  That back 3 we started in was dreadful for that because half the time he was stood on his own in 20 yards of space.  That happens less in a back 4, but if we are set on playing gas-out football with everyone bombing forward and back again, he will always get exposed to some degree in any system.

When we reverted to a back 4 early-ish on last season, Warne made it very clear on Radio Derby that he didn't think the formation mattered that much. His words were pretty much "I pick 11 players that I think can win us the game and fit them into a formation somehow".  So I'm going to take him at his word that that's what he's doing.  

7 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Well, despite all his inherent faults, he's managed to get us to 1 point off automatic after 5 games.

Maybe "a bunch of new signings that don't seem capable of doing the jobs they were signed for" could be changed to "a bunch of new signings, some of which had a couple of bad performances getting used to a new team".

Maybe "we have the half the squad playing in positions they can't handle" could be changed to "some players look more suited to playing in a 4-4-2 rather than his preferred 3-5-2, and he seems to be moving back to the former."

I think 5 games is probably to early to deem that he has failed "the onus should be on the manager to get the best out of the players and budget he can." The two latest signings have hardly even played yet. Let's give them one more sub appearance at Bolton before we start the booing. 

Almost half the league (11 teams, 12 if you don't include Wigan's points deduction) are within 1 point of the automatics, so I hardly think that's a massive endorsement. 

If you're on a restricted budget (or even if you're not, really), you can't afford to spend the entire summer and preseason recruiting for and practicing a back 3, and then have to change it after 4 games.  We've currently got Bradley and Elder sat twiddling their thumbs on the bench - 2 of the most high profile summer signings, who were specifically signed for that 352.  Smith and Hourihane are trying to play like box-to-box midfielders when they're both the wrong side of 30.  We had Bird and NML stuck as some sort of inside forwards for 4 games, Cashin near enough playing left back.  None of that screams making the best use of what you have available.  And it's not just 5 games, this was going on for all of last season under Warne too.  Seemingly no interest in getting the best out of players, no interest in playing to players strengths, just chuck a bunch of players in a formation and hope it works.

2 hours ago, NottsRammy said:

How the hell can you moan at Warne when he has so far spent a 2 pence piece and an old rusty bottle top . 

It's our Knight in shining armour mr clowes that needs to come out and explain what Warne is working with !! . 

For me Warne is one of the most straight forward heart on his sleeve blokes I have ever seen manage the rams , as a person I really like him . Although I find it hard to ignore the face he pulled the other year when we stayed up , that I'm hoping deep down was all about our former chairman . So I've voted end of season for simple reason on evidence so far warnes budget is SHOCKING , REMEMBER we have set our own budget which is below the efl's limits , this is what was said . 

Putting aside the discussion of what the actual budget is, one of the biggest arguments I have against Warne is how badly he uses what assets he does have at his disposal.  If we are under a restricted budget, the onus should be on the manager to get the best out of the players and budget he can.  Instead, we have the half the squad playing in positions they can't handle, a bunch of new signings that don't seem capable of doing the jobs they were signed for, and an ever-expanding injury list.  Most of which were apparently running themes at Rotherham too.  (Obviously I'm not blaming Warne for all the injuries, but he has a reputation for over-working players, we do seem to be picking up a lot of soft tissue injuries again.)

And for the record, I voted out leave immediately, although I would have gone for "should never have been appointed" had that been an option.  Nothing I've in the last season has changed my mind.

1 minute ago, Miggins said:

This is a day that has not disappointed!! Well done, Rams!! Now Warney, get everyone playing in their preferred position with 4 at the back and get this mighty team back on the road! 🤗

Half expecting TJJ to be starting at right wingback on Saturday...

27 minutes ago, S8TY said:

So possibly two Tyreece's in one day, you wait years for a Tyreece to come along and then bang!! two at once lol 

Hopefully we don't sign another, because Tyreese a crowd...

1 minute ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Just listened to the pre match press conference;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0g8jxw7

Dom Dietrich asked him if the 2 pending signings are both midfielders and Warne replied “no they’re not, you’ll have to wait and see like everyone else”. Not sure whether that means neither are midfielders or if it’s a midfielder (Fornah?) and a striker/winger or something. Hopefully the announcement isn’t too far away. 

It's gonna be a right wingback.  We need to get back to playing 3 at the back as soon as possible, and make sure we don't play Rooney for more than 1 game in 10, don't we Paul... 🤮

3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

 

And of course it was nothing to do with the change in formation, resulting in him having to do much less of the stuff he's not good at, was it Paul? 🙄

Just now, S8TY said:

Exactly this...the anti Warne brigade will turn any target into a crap useless player we don't need 

The pro-Warne brigade are exactly the same tbh.  The number of people I've seen who are convinced Fornah will instantly turn us into Real Madrid etc.

3 minutes ago, Barney1991 said:

Anyone idea the player on Saturday we were gazumped by a championship club for. 

If this is up to date:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_football_transfers_summer_2023

Then it can only really be Yasin Asari (Brighton to Coventry), Flynn Downes (West ham to Southampton, although seems very unlikely to me) or Taylor Gardner-Hickman (West Brom to Bristol).

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

Any reason given?

Sent home to get their boots. Warne wanted to see if they can play holding midfield.

1 hour ago, Rample said:

Reminds me of Clement or Rowett in respect that nobody was over impressed with their style of play and there were obvious deficiancies in their abilities but Clement had got us into the top 2 and Rowett was steady-ish. 

 

I think the difference there, certainly with Rowett anyway, is that at least I could see what he was trying to do.  I might not have liked the way we played, but I could see a path to it being effective.  We largely played to the players strengths, recruited to fit a system etc.  We had the same lack of pace at the back and in midfield as we do this season (with Davies, Huddlestone, Johnson etc), but we sat deep and compact, so it wasn't exposed.  And we set up to let Nugent, Vydra, Lawrence etc break from deep and get running at people, so they all benefitted from the system too.

I don't get any of that with Warne.  Everything seems to be barely more than doing stuff and random and hoping it works.

16 minutes ago, Blondest Goat said:

Don't really disagree with any of that, I wouldn't give Warne a pass for last season, the drop off in form and missing out on playoffs was a failure as far as I'm concerned.

But I do think some people are slating the players and jumping to conclusions about what they are and aren't capable of just so that they can pick holes in Warnes recruitment.  It may well turn out to be poor.  I just think it's too early to judge at this stage.  

We don't need to be amazing to be successful in this league. I don't think we ever will be with Warne as manager.  I do think we could easily be more effective though, enough to get promoted and for now at least I'm still clinging to that hope.

My biggest personal issue with Warne as a manager is his seeming inability (or unwillingness) to really understand or care what players are good and bad at.  I think that's why we keep getting players played out of position, players doing jobs they can't really do, players not getting the service or support they need and so on.  He appears to treat every midfielder as a box-to-box midfielder, every wide player as a wingback and so on.  To me, it's at the root of all the issues we've had on the pitch since he's been the manager.

So I'm more than prepared to admit that that's probably colouring my opinions of the signings somewhat.  But when the manager basically comes out and says (or at least indicates by his actions) that he really wants to play wingbacks, and we go and sign a fullback that's (as far as I can see) never played wingback in his career, and he immediately starts struggling to play wingback, it's hard to not jump to conclusions.

Just now, Blondest Goat said:

You talk as if they need to be world beaters to do a job in league one. They don't.  They've both been playing at a higher level than this. 

And you're writing them off after a handful of games. Elder hasn't even been fit!  He was in the league one team of the season last time he was down here.  He could be bang average and still be better than Roberts, who aside from a headed goal at MK and an absolute screamer at home to Shrewsbury did virtually nothing, going forwards.  When did he ever "beat a full back and whip a cross in?". 

That's literally the entire point though.  Roberts spent the majority of the season playing as a regular fullback, or on the left of a back 3.  He did a decent job there.  He's a solid defender and comfortable passing the ball.  When he played as a wingback, I pointed out several times on here that he's not good enough going forwards to do that job.  He's not a dribbler or a crosser.  You need your wingbacks to be getting forwards, and getting good balls into the box, otherwise the entire system doesn't work.

Elder was in the team of the season playing as a regular fullback, not a flying wingback.  Bradley was excellent for Luton playing in a more structured defence, not the spread out back 3 we were trying to play in the first few games.  Ward did well for Peterborough playing as a winger, not a wingback.  And so on and so on. 

We were clearly wanting to play a back 3 since Warne got here (I presume we can at least agree on that?).  But we've gone and recruited a bunch of players that don't seem to be able to do it.  The players don't have to be world beaters, but if you put them in a team and ask them to do stuff they're not good at, they're going to struggle.  If we were supposed to be giving Warne a free pass for last season because he didn't have his own players in, then trying to argue that the player's we've signed to replace them have the exact same weaknesses isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of anything.

1 minute ago, Curtains said:

My point is you aren’t giving Warne enough time to stamp his identity on Derby. 
Warne knows we aren’t great yet.  
Ed Dawes said Saturday was better but I disagree.  We played better against Wigan.  
Ed Dawes slipped into we won so it must be better trap. 
Sometimes you play well and lose and visa Versa

How long do we give him then? Serious question.  At what point are we allowed to make a judgment on whether he's doing well or not?  

5 minutes ago, Curtains said:

https://www.managerstats.co.uk/managers/brian-clough/
 

lost more than he won at Hartlepool 

Shocking at Brighton and Leeds 

I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make now.  You said earlier that Warne was being slammed for his time at Rotherham, yet he was successful there.  If you're really following through on the Clough analogy, we're not Derby in it, we're Leeds.  A manager goes from a club where he was successful (Warne at Rotherham, Clough at Derby) to a completely different club (Warne at Derby, Clough at Leeds or Brighton) and struggles to recreate what he previously did.

11 minutes ago, Curtains said:

I remember when Brian Clough came to Derby he didn’t do well at first . In fact it was very average.

I am not saying Warne is equatable to the genius BC but Brian had money to spend. 
He bought Todd without telling Sam. longson.

I just feel Warne is being slammed for Rotherham where as Clough could of been over Hartlepool.

We need to give Warne a chance and the guy is a decent bloke 

No amount of time is going to change what type of players these signings fundamentally are though.  Sonny Bradley will never turn into the mobile, comfortable-on-the-ball centre half that is needed to play in the spread back 3 we started the season out in, Elder will never be a progressive wingback that can beat a fullback and whip a cross in etc.

And as for "didn't do well at first", we're nearly a year into Warne's management.  People were willing to write off last season because he didn't have the players he wanted.  Well a year later he's signed a bunch of players, and they seem no more capable of playing Warne's system than the last lot were.  

17 minutes ago, Curtains said:

It’s isn’t pretty in Div 1. 
Unfounded and unsubstantiated because you are inferring Warne has problems in team selection and recruiting etc.   We don’t know this. 

I can see with my own eyes that he keep selecting players, that he has recruited, to do jobs they appear not to be able to do.  

2 minutes ago, Curtains said:

It is unfounded and unsubstantiated what you just said. 

What exactly is "unfounded and unsubstantiated"?  We're not talking about random internet rumours, it's stuff we can literally see happening on the pitch in front of us.

6 minutes ago, Blondest Goat said:

Nit-picking 

So Warne having problems with transfers, team selection, tactics, in-game management and player development are all "nit-picking"? What do you actually think a managers job is, if none of that stuff is important?

Just now, Wolfie20 said:

We're 3 games into a 46 game season - if we are in a similar situation say by the end of October then perhaps more fans will be sharing the same concerns as a few in here currently are.

Last Saturdays' win, although not a particularly exciting or controlled performance, nevertheless brought 3 points and a clean sheet  - surely less of "a mess" than the previous week? Granted no new players in but the window is still open.

Given that we've apparently wanted to play a back 3 since Warne got here, we've signed a load of players specifically to play it, we spent the whole of preseason practicing it...  The fact we had to almost completely abandon it after 4 games to get an even remotely acceptable performance isn't exactly a resounding sign that things are getting better.

And I'm yet to be convinced the solution to the "Warne signed a load of players that can't play his system" problem is "let Warne sign even more players" either.

1 minute ago, Curtains said:

You have a real downer on Paul Warne mate .

Where does this stem from .

The club was in a mess so some patience is needed IMO .

 

The fact we seem to be getting into an even bigger mess, week by week?

8 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

We could have had the same record against the “top” sides but gained an extra 16 points by winning instead of drawing the 8 games I mentioned above and we’d comfortably have finished in the play offs. 
All the games count across the whole season, we need to pick up more points than we did last season, against whoever the opponents are.

Up until the point you make the playoffs, then you *have* to beat 2 top 6 sides to go up...

6 minutes ago, Carnero said:

I thought it was quite clear to see at the game, not sure whether you went or not? 2nd half obviously became a 5 once the messy subs had been made, how we ended up with Nelson as some sort of RWB towards the latter stages is beyond me 🤦‍♂️

Yeah, I was there. I’m sat level with our left back area second half, so Cashin was taking all the throwins right in front of me, which stood out like a sore thumb.  Whatever we were supposed to be doing, I don’t think we were doing it consistently (or if we were, I couldn’t spot the pattern).  Maybe starting out as a 5 and then transitioning to a 4 once we’d played out into midfield or something 🤷‍♂️. Anyway, it seemed a bit unnecessarily complicated to me.
 

No arguments it was a 5 once Elder and co came on.  The later changes just felt like getting making changes for the sake of making changes, and we only had senior defenders on the bench so it had to be them. Not sure how NML played the full game either, he was absolutely dead after an hour.