The Ukraine War

[Carl Sagan]

5 hours ago, Archied said:

Not a jot of difference to those it is forced on , easy for those outside looking in to make one somehow better than the other , 

if someone does not want to pick up a gun to kill or be killed , forcing them is wrong wrong wrong , why is it wrong for someone to say a piece of land and a flag is not enough for them to kill or die for and they would choose to get out ?

Exactly. The only time I would consider taking up arms in some military conflict would be in response to an alien invasion or an AI takeover. I'm not prepared to kill a fellow Human Being who's been ordered by his or her leaders to fight and potentially die for some political cause. 

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

So your philosophy is basically just run away and let an aggressor do what they like? 

 

Erm very much a no on that ,,, my philosophy is I will decide what and when is right to fight for and what level of violence I am prepared to go to ,, I will also not ask or force others to fight for me ,

so consider your sneaky implication of cowardice seen through in exactly the same way the accusation s of supporting putin is when anyone dares question your opinion on war which as far as I can see seems to be once you’ve picked a side then it can do no wrong whilst the other is all wrong 

[Ramarena]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

I see the mad scramble to avoid having to participate in a war happening in Russia now just the same as I saw the mad scramble in Ukraine when this started , I despise war and war mongers no matter what side they are on and the only way I see wars becoming a think of the past is when the masses refuse to fight them for the greedy power hungry loons that through history keep appearing.

conscription is a war crime in my eyes 

I’d like us to get to this point, ultimately conscription is a bad thing.

But a much more pressing matter is to focus on the mass slaughter of civilians by imperial nations such as Russia and the US.

The wretched discoveries in the mass grave at Izium are still in the news cycle, yet have barely been mentioned in this thread.

Just seems strange to me that discussion on conscription and other things mainly targeted at Ukraine takes priority, whilst the Russian army commits genocide and it’s not even mentioned.

I really don’t know what to make of it.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Ramarena

[Archied]

25 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

I’d like us to get to this point, ultimately conscription is a bad thing.

But a much more pressing matter is to focus on the mass slaughter of civilians by imperial nations such as Russia and the US.

The wretched discoveries in the mass grave at Izium are still in the news cycle, yet have barely been mentioned in this thread.

Just seems strange to me that discussion on conscription and other things mainly targeted at Ukraine takes priority, whilst the Russian army commits genocide and it’s not even mentioned.

I really don’t know what to make of it.

Well you’ve mentioned the Russian army committing genocide and I’m sure there will be no debate on it as there is no room for debate on the indefensible 

[Crewton]

42 minutes ago, Archied said:

Erm very much a no on that ,,, my philosophy is I will decide what and when is right to fight for and what level of violence I am prepared to go to ,, I will also not ask or force others to fight for me ,

so consider your sneaky implication of cowardice seen through in exactly the same way the accusation s of supporting putin is when anyone dares question your opinion on war which as far as I can see seems to be once you’ve picked a side then it can do no wrong whilst the other is all wrong 

I didn't mention cowardice, I just think it's a strange philosophy for when your homeland is being attacked. I also think it's utterly bizarre that you make no distinction between the aggressor and their victim. As far as I'm aware, Ukraine has never set foot on sovereign Russian territory, never bombed its people, poisoned its politicians, defenstrated its journalists or forced its population to speak Ukrainian or deny their nationality. Your philosophy appears to be for them to surrender without resistance, which is an odd stance, I must say. 

 

[Archied]

8 hours ago, Crewton said:

I didn't mention cowardice, I just think it's a strange philosophy for when your homeland is being attacked. I also think it's utterly bizarre that you make no distinction between the aggressor and their victim. As far as I'm aware, Ukraine has never set foot on sovereign Russian territory, never bombed its people, poisoned its politicians, defenstrated its journalists or forced its population to speak Ukrainian or deny their nationality. Your philosophy appears to be for them to surrender without resistance, which is an odd stance, I must say. 

 

Nope yet again you ignore the point and go off on a rant about which side of the war waged by political leaders is right or wrong, your wording was run away ,, my wording is choose to take no part in a war over territory and get yourself and your children to a place of safety

conscription ; forcing people to take up arms and kill or be killed is wrong and a war crime in my opinion, no matter who does it ,

I have every bit the same objection to the USA drafting thousands of young men to die or suffer a life of misery after witnessing horrors in a country like Vietnam half way round the world from them ,

 

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

Nope yet again you ignore the point and go off on a rant about which side of the war waged by political leaders is right or wrong, your wording was run away ,, my wording is choose to take no part in a war over territory and get yourself and your children to a place of safety

conscription ; forcing people to take up arms and kill or be killed is wrong and a war crime in my opinion, no matter who does it ,

I have every bit the same objection to the USA drafting thousands of young men to die or suffer a life of misery after witnessing horrors in a country like Vietnam half way round the world from them ,

 

Again, you're using a historic example of conscription implemented for the purposes of waging war on foreign soil (which I would never support) to argue that a country being invaded shouldn't expect its people to help defend it. Conscription of its own citizens by a state engaged in an armed conflict does not breach either the Geneva Convention or international humanitarian law so, whatever your personal beliefs, it isn't a war crime. 

If Russia are, as alleged, conscripting Ukrainian citizens in territories they're occupying into their own forces, that IS a breach of the GC and therefore a war crime. 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Crewton

[Ram-Alf]

As a person of age who most likely wouldn't be conscripted if our land was invaded, I'd volunteer as I can walk, Talk and hopefully squeeze a trigger.

I'd use any tool or firearm to defend my family and Country, Politicians start wars, It's the man on the street who fights in them, I can not see the UK invading a foreign land, So I'd not be fighting for the Politicians.

We had National Service in the 60s, Our armed forces are shrinking and we'll seek help from those who have a bigger military capability(USA), Our 1st port of call would and should be conscription, The enemy is here to force their politics and way of life on the defenders.

Kill or be killed seems to be the question, I've never physically seen a gun so I do not know that could I kill someone, But if the choice was them of us, I'm pretty sure I'd fire it at them.

Words are easily posted on a subject that I doubt very much will happen to us, But understand both sides. 

 

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Crewton said:

Again, you're using a historic example of conscription implemented for the purposes of waging war on foreign soil (which I would never support) to argue that a country being invaded shouldn't expect its people to help defend it. Conscription of its own citizens by a state engaged in an armed conflict does not breach either the Geneva Convention or international humanitarian law so, whatever your personal beliefs, it isn't a war crime. 

If Russia are, as alleged, conscripting Ukrainian citizens in territories they're occupying into their own forces, that IS a breach of the GC and therefore a war crime. 

 

 

The point was that in my view conscription is wrong and a war crime no matter who does it , you don’t agree , say I live on an estate and the local gang say a gang from another estate is comming round to bash them up and I have to fight or face severe punishment , even death ,,, same s*** , 

the masses refuse to fight for the elites then war ends ,

where we differ is you focus on winning this war for Ukraine , I focus on the least amount of needless deaths possible and the shortest time taken

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Unlucky Alf said:

As a person of age who most likely wouldn't be conscripted if our land was invaded, I'd volunteer as I can walk, Talk and hopefully squeeze a trigger.

I'd use any tool or firearm to defend my family and Country, Politicians start wars, It's the man on the street who fights in them, I can not see the UK invading a foreign land, So I'd not be fighting for the Politicians.

We had National Service in the 60s, Our armed forces are shrinking and we'll seek help from those who have a bigger military capability(USA), Our 1st port of call would and should be conscription, The enemy is here to force their politics and way of life on the defenders.

Kill or be killed seems to be the question, I've never physically seen a gun so I do not know that could I kill someone, But if the choice was them of us, I'm pretty sure I'd fire it at them.

Words are easily posted on a subject that I doubt very much will happen to us, But understand both sides. 

 

My point is Alf if the masses refuse to fight these wars we won’t be invaded in the first place,

as someone who has lost a child I can assure anyone I would not be lining my son up to go to war and be killed , territory, money , politics , religion all pales when you understand first hand just what it means 

[Ramarena]

14 hours ago, Archied said:

Well you’ve mentioned the Russian army committing genocide and I’m sure there will be no debate on it as there is no room for debate on the indefensible 

Maybe, although it seems people prefer to bring up other subjects instead.

[Alph]

Russian and American tactics in war has been spoken about. The thread generally has been about the circumstances leading up to and surrounding the war. 

What we're seeing in Ukraine isn't exactly rare scenes in wartime. Nobody here is promoting or justifying war. 

Nobody here even thinks the "Putin apologists" like to see mass graves do they? 

Russia's disregard for human life in war is frightening. It was so during WWII. 

Are we suggesting there's an argument being made here for the way Russia has taken the war to Ukraine? 

There's a long way between saying maybe Russia has a right to be concerned about x because of y and then saying that all Ukraine needed a jolly good Russian rampage.

[Crewton]

4 hours ago, Archied said:

The point was that in my view conscription is wrong and a war crime no matter who does it , you don’t agree , say I live on an estate and the local gang say a gang from another estate is comming round to bash them up and I have to fight or face severe punishment , even death ,,, same s*** , 

the masses refuse to fight for the elites then war ends ,

where we differ is you focus on winning this war for Ukraine , I focus on the least amount of needless deaths possible and the shortest time taken

It's not merely that I disagree (that conscription is a war crime) it's that international law disagrees too. You have your own principles and beliefs on the subject obviously, but in this case that's all they are. 

I'm not sure how your ambition for minimal deaths is going to be achieved either, because Putin doesn't look like he's going to back down and withdraw his forces (the morally correct action) and, whatever you think, a substantial majority of Ukrainians want Russian troops off their land  badly enough to keep fighting, it appears. 

 

 

[Elwood P Dowd]

9 hours ago, Unlucky Alf said:

As a person of age who most likely wouldn't be conscripted if our land was invaded, I'd volunteer as I can walk, Talk and hopefully squeeze a trigger.

I'd use any tool or firearm to defend my family and Country, Politicians start wars, It's the man on the street who fights in them, I can not see the UK invading a foreign land, So I'd not be fighting for the Politicians.

We had National Service in the 60s, Our armed forces are shrinking and we'll seek help from those who have a bigger military capability(USA), Our 1st port of call would and should be conscription, The enemy is here to force their politics and way of life on the defenders.

Kill or be killed seems to be the question, I've never physically seen a gun so I do not know that could I kill someone, But if the choice was them of us, I'm pretty sure I'd fire it at them.

Words are easily posted on a subject that I doubt very much will happen to us, But understand both sides. 

 

If you’ve been married for any length of time I doubt you would have any fight left in you ???

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Crewton said:

It's not merely that I disagree (that conscription is a war crime) it's that international law disagrees too. You have your own principles and beliefs on the subject obviously, but in this case that's all they are. 

I'm not sure how your ambition for minimal deaths is going to be achieved either, because Putin doesn't look like he's going to back down and withdraw his forces (the morally correct action) and, whatever you think, a substantial majority of Ukrainians want Russian troops off their land  badly enough to keep fighting, it appears. 

 

 

Oh well that’s ok then , let’s crack on with both sides conscripting ordinary people to kill each other and prolong the bloodshed ,, no in fact  you crack on,, me ? I will stick to and voice the opinion that this shat needs to be stood up against by the masses and stopped 

how in this day and age we have learnt nothing is beyond me 

 

[Ram-Alf]

9 minutes ago, Elwood P Dowd said:

If you’ve been married for any length of time I doubt you would have any fight left in you ???

39 years, My batteries have been re charged this past 8 years,   

[Crewton]

5 minutes ago, Archied said:

Oh well that’s ok then , let’s crack on with both sides conscripting ordinary people to kill each other and prolong the bloodshed ,, no in fact  you crack on,, me ? I will stick to and voice the opinion that this shat needs to be stood up against by the masses and stopped 

how in this day and age we have learnt nothing is beyond me 

 

I'm sorry, but you sound utterly deluded. I'd rather address the reality of what's happening than put my faith in swords turning into ploughshares. There's a saying doing the rounds that I believe is pretty close to the truth : if Russia stops fighting there will be no war. If Ukraine stops fighting there will be no Ukraine. 

[Ramarena]

Georgia are saying almost 120,000 Russians have crossed their border to escape the draft. 

[alexxxxx]

45 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

Georgia are saying almost 120,000 Russians have crossed their border to escape the draft. 

Georgia isnt a big place and a lot of it very underdeveloped. Apparently there's been a stream of Russians moving to Georgia over the past few years as well.

Edited September 26, 2022 by alexxxxx

[Ramarena]

6 minutes ago, alexxxxx said:

Georgia isnt a big place and a lot of it very underdeveloped. Apparently there's been a stream of Russians moving to Georgia over the past few years as well.

I think they've added 1% to their overall population in the space of a week (if they're staying in Georgia and not in transit elsewhere).