The Ukraine War

[Ram-Alf]

We never learn from history...yet there's enough for us not to repeat it 🙄

Hitler takes the Sudetenland, Britain and France agree, Hitler takes the rest of Czechoslovakia Britain and France do nowt, Hitler invades Poland under a false flag, Britain and France say get out or we'll declare War, Hitler sticks 2 fingers up, Britain and France do Nowt.

Putin takes the Crimea, The World does nowt, Putin invades Ukraine the World sits up and takes notice.

We all have an opinion on what's what, There's right and wrong in all Wars, But imo you can't have bullies taking a big chunk of the cake when the cake is not yours.

The West maybe arming Ukraine...but who's arming Russia...China, Iran, Belarus, N Korea et al, This is becoming more and more of a proxy War to see who will blink 1st...and still the killing continues.

What will stop this...answers in the post.  

[Alph]

6 hours ago, jono said:

Those larger goals are that we’d rather not be next - which strikes me as a perfectly valid reason. 

 

Is that right though? Is there any reason to believe we'd be next or that he would invade a NATO ally? Or that he could, even if he wanted to? 

I'm not arguing against supporting Ukraine or anything like that. The "we'll be next" has been pure scaremongering and propaganda as far as I can see? 

This is a hugely costly war against an enemy on his doorstep that's got a vastly inferior navy and air force. 

Proxy wars, coups, electoral interference and assassinations are food and drink to him. But it makes no sense that Russia would come for us and I think the defence of Ukraine is more about world order? 

[jono]

30 minutes ago, Alph said:

Is that right though? Is there any reason to believe we'd be next or that he would invade a NATO ally? Or that he could, even if he wanted to? 

I'm not arguing against supporting Ukraine or anything like that. The "we'll be next" has been pure scaremongering and propaganda as far as I can see? 

This is a hugely costly war against an enemy on his doorstep that's got a vastly inferior navy and air force. 

Proxy wars, coups, electoral interference and assassinations are food and drink to him. But it makes no sense that Russia would come for us and I think the defence of Ukraine is more about world order? 

Strictly speaking you’re right, but ambitions grow. Ukraine has been disposed in a friendly sense to the west, its seeming desire to join the EU. All that is helpful to peace and trade, whilst Russia is a dictatorship that has control over a rich source of raw materials. The “we will be next” point I think is more (in the first instance about the states, Latvia, Lithuania a nibbling away at anything that was Russian speaking  -  at what point does the insurgent story and native Russian story percolate through them ? and the EU blustering but can’t quite challenge.

i don’t think for a moment that if Putin takes the Ukraine that he will March in to Poland. It will be a gradual eating away at boundaries and taking advantage of family squabbles in Europe

[Ramarena]

8 hours ago, Archied said:

So those countries arming and funding Russia have nothing to do with us , Europe and USA funding and arming Ukraine ,

this has bugger all to do with whether the Ukraine exists , it’s all about who controls it as a very valuable strategic military , economic ,mineral rich and food producing area of Eastern Europe and has been for a very long time ,

when you say they are still here you obviously don’t mean the thousands of people on both sides who are not still here , Ukraine would not allow men to choose to leave if they thought death and the death of they’re families was more important than who control s the area , Russia have done the same thing with conscription, we are funding this because we want a western leaning government in place ,not because we care about lives and so called democracy, thousands die in gazza but we arm Isreal , thousands die world wide that we turn a blind eye to ,

to be fair though you state that you believe there’s a chance Ukraine wins this war , I don’t and that’s always been my point , many years ago someone gave me a bit of advice that I’ve always found useful,,, keep your own side of the street clean , it’s helped me massively when situations arose that I struggle with which I could easily make a whole lot worse than they need be 

As I’ve said before, on here before, our/your opinion on whether Ukraine should fight, or is ultimately irrelevant.

We are funding this because the Ukrainians wanted help.

Despite the warnings no western country, other that Poland took a Russian invasion seriously. For the first week of the invasion, Ukraines fate was left to the absolute heroics of its outmanned and outgunned army. They had zero western assistance.

Its churlish to say weve always wanted to control it, because Ukraine was hours from falling into Russian hands. If you want to control a country, you don’t almost let it fall to Russia.

It is the people of the country who decide their future.

If they wanted a pro Russian government they could protest for one, just like maiden. The Ukrainian army could fall back en masse to allow Russia to advance.

But they don’t. They need our support!

 

 

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Alph said:

Is that right though? Is there any reason to believe we'd be next or that he would invade a NATO ally? Or that he could, even if he wanted to? 

I'm not arguing against supporting Ukraine or anything like that. The "we'll be next" has been pure scaremongering and propaganda as far as I can see? 

This is a hugely costly war against an enemy on his doorstep that's got a vastly inferior navy and air force. 

Proxy wars, coups, electoral interference and assassinations are food and drink to him. But it makes no sense that Russia would come for us and I think the defence of Ukraine is more about world order? 

You are spot on alph and this is our line, 

[Archied]

56 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

As I’ve said before, on here before, our/your opinion on whether Ukraine should fight, or is ultimately irrelevant.

We are funding this because the Ukrainians wanted help.

Despite the warnings no western country, other that Poland took a Russian invasion seriously. For the first week of the invasion, Ukraines fate was left to the absolute heroics of its outmanned and outgunned army. They had zero western assistance.

Its churlish to say weve always wanted to control it, because Ukraine was hours from falling into Russian hands. If you want to control a country, you don’t almost let it fall to Russia.

It is the people of the country who decide their future.

If they wanted a pro Russian government they could protest for one, just like maiden. The Ukrainian army could fall back en masse to allow Russia to advance.

But they don’t. They need our support!

 

 

We the west had / have had firm lines in place ,,, nato countries , we really have no choice but to go to war if a nato country is attacked ,invaded or encroached on , no appeasement as we have to defend ourselves, that’s my line 🤷🏻‍♂️, taking on Ukraine war is a step towards Russia by us , Ukraine would not be accepted by nato before this as the level of corruption is not acceptable to nato , on top of that there are so many countries and peoples around the world that we have no interest in getting involved in to pretend that this is about humanitarian and democracy principles , let’s at least be honest about that and at least have a starting point in the debate on whether we should be pouring weapons into the conflict and extending the killing 

Edited July 14 by Archied

[jono]

31 minutes ago, Archied said:

We the west had / have had firm lines in place ,,, nato countries , we really have no choice but to go to war if a nato country is attacked ,invaded or encroached on , no appeasement as we have to defend ourselves, that’s my line 🤷🏻‍♂️, taking on Ukraine war is a step towards Russia by us , Ukraine would not be accepted by nato before this as the level of corruption is not acceptable to nato , on top of that there are so many countries and peoples around the world that we have no interest in getting involved in to pretend that this is about humanitarian and democracy principles , let’s at least be honest about that and at least have a starting point in the debate on whether we should be pouring weapons into the conflict and extending the killing 

And Russia taking Ukraine isn’t a step towards us ? Newton’s first law 

[jono]

17 minutes ago, jono said:

And Russia taking Ukraine isn’t a step towards us ? Newton’s first law 

Sorry, 3rd Law 😊

[Ghost of Clough]

3 minutes ago, jono said:

Sorry, 3rd Law 😊

You could argue for the 1st law too:

Russia will remain in uniform motion in a straight line unless compelled to change its state by the action of another country

[Archied]

10 minutes ago, jono said:

Sorry, 3rd Law 😊

Ukraine current government we’re making efforts to join nato and the EU , putin is a loon and does little to hide it , the west are also loons but try a little harder to hide it , truth is in these power struggles life is cheap ( that’s been shown time and time again through history) the war mongers of Russia or the west don’t give a dam about thousands being killed 

[Ramarena]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

We the west had / have had firm lines in place ,,, nato countries , we really have no choice but to go to war if a nato country is attacked ,invaded or encroached on , no appeasement as we have to defend ourselves, that’s my line 🤷🏻‍♂️, taking on Ukraine war is a step towards Russia by us , Ukraine would not be accepted by nato before this as the level of corruption is not acceptable to nato , on top of that there are so many countries and peoples around the world that we have no interest in getting involved in to pretend that this is about humanitarian and democracy principles , let’s at least be honest about that and at least have a starting point in the debate on whether we should be pouring weapons into the conflict and extending the killing 

Not sure how you can logically think that.

If Russia had taken Ukraine, then they would be right at NATO’s border from their own imperialist actions.

 

 

 

[jono]

59 minutes ago, Archied said:

Ukraine current government we’re making efforts to join nato and the EU , putin is a loon and does little to hide it , the west are also loons but try a little harder to hide it , truth is in these power struggles life is cheap ( that’s been shown time and time again through history) the war mongers of Russia or the west don’t give a dam about thousands being killed 

I see you trying to find middle ground amidst a call to just stop killing. I totally understand your ethics and decency but I would challenge your loon thing when applied to the rest of Europe .. let’s just leave the US out of it for a moment.

Europe since the war has managed to stitch together however many disparate nations under an almost universal code of law. That melting pot ranges from Slavs, to Southern Mediterranean and the broadly Anglo Saxons elsewhere. Those nations have diverse languages, even more diverse economies, varying wealth and disparate left and right leaderships .. Somehow there hasn’t been a war since. .. So no .. Western and Central Europe are not loons and defeating tyrants is something that needs doing. 
 

The US .. well they might be loons, I am not sure yet, but a lot of loons live there. 

Edited July 14 by jono

[Archied]

44 minutes ago, jono said:

I see you trying to find middle ground amidst a call to just stop killing. I totally understand your ethics and decency but I would challenge your loon thing when applied to the rest of Europe .. let’s just leave the US out of it for a moment.

Europe since the war has managed to stitch together however many disparate nations under an almost universal code of law. That melting pot ranges from Slavs, to Southern Mediterranean and the broadly Anglo Saxons elsewhere. Those nations have diverse languages, even more diverse economies, varying wealth and disparate left and right leaderships .. Somehow there hasn’t been a war since. .. So no .. Western and Central Europe are not loons and defeating tyrants is something that needs doing. 
 

The US .. well they might be loons, I am not sure yet, but a lot of loons live there. 

Sorry but some of our ( U.K.   poss not Europe? ) recent history is all too fresh in the memory especially Blair the supposed Christian good will to all men debacle ,, I know lots see things differently but I just don’t see how this ends well or slows down the deaths on our current trajectory,

that’s pretty much all I can say on the subject at this point , hope I’m wrong but this either escalate s to the indescribable or drags on for years and thousands more deaths for a negotiated settlement that has to happen but nobody seems interested in trying to find now 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited July 14 by Archied

[Alph]

14 hours ago, jono said:

I see you trying to find middle ground amidst a call to just stop killing. I totally understand your ethics and decency but I would challenge your loon thing when applied to the rest of Europe .. let’s just leave the US out of it for a moment.

Europe since the war has managed to stitch together however many disparate nations under an almost universal code of law. That melting pot ranges from Slavs, to Southern Mediterranean and the broadly Anglo Saxons elsewhere. Those nations have diverse languages, even more diverse economies, varying wealth and disparate left and right leaderships .. Somehow there hasn’t been a war since. .. So no .. Western and Central Europe are not loons and defeating tyrants is something that needs doing. 
 

The US .. well they might be loons, I am not sure yet, but a lot of loons live there. 

It's hard to separate Europe from the Imperialist warmongers of the USA. 

I desperately wish it wasn't. There's so much hope and promise in Europe (now being shat on by Putin) but it has a great big shadow cast over it by our gun nut, oil grabbing, resource thieving, war profiteering friends across the pond who are attempting to impose sanctions on the international criminal court and refusing to acknowledge the very laws they were cheerleading a couple of years back. 

It's a shame we turn to them for protection and leadership. I'd kind of say the opposite, they are definitely  loons but a lot of decent ordinary peaceful people live there. 

[jono]

1 hour ago, Alph said:

It's hard to separate Europe from the Imperialist warmongers of the USA. 

I desperately wish it wasn't. There's so much hope and promise in Europe (now being shat on by Putin) but it has a great big shadow cast over it by our gun nut, oil grabbing, resource thieving, war profiteering friends across the pond who are attempting to impose sanctions on the international criminal court and refusing to acknowledge the very laws they were cheerleading a couple of years back. 

It's a shame we turn to them for protection and leadership. I'd kind of say the opposite, they are definitely  loons but a lot of decent ordinary peaceful people live there. 

I am not fond of the US stance, culture or indeed it’s tactics on many issues. They have always claimed a certain unwarranted exceptionalism which grates with me. That said, you could very easily level the same accusations at China which over the last 20 ascendant years has resource grabbed, manipulated and profited just as much. Not doing a whataboutery, just perspective. 

[Alph]

6 minutes ago, jono said:

I am not fond of the US stance, culture or indeed it’s tactics on many issues. They have always claimed a certain unwarranted exceptionalism which grates with me. That said, you could very easily level the same accusations at China which over the last 20 ascendant years has resource grabbed, manipulated and profited just as much. Not doing a whataboutery, just perspective. 

Yeah, no arguments here. 

Europe isn't perfect of course and it seems very hypocritical to criticise imperialism while declaring everybody should just be like Britain, France, Spain, Germany, Netherlands, Portugal.... but it just seems to me that we have pretty decent grasp on how to not get along fairly peacefully. 

In a complete fantasy world we'd not stand united with America when they roll out the tanks. We've done our share of building a better world via great empires. The very least we should do, as a friend of the USA, is not wag our tails in the background when they decide that international law doesn't apply to them and not get dragged into their favourite hobby of killing people with darker skin. But, it's fantasy. 

[jono]

2 hours ago, Alph said:

Yeah, no arguments here. 

Europe isn't perfect of course and it seems very hypocritical to criticise imperialism while declaring everybody should just be like Britain, France, Spain, Germany, Netherlands, Portugal.... but it just seems to me that we have pretty decent grasp on how to not get along fairly peacefully. 

In a complete fantasy world we'd not stand united with America when they roll out the tanks. We've done our share of building a better world via great empires. The very least we should do, as a friend of the USA, is not wag our tails in the background when they decide that international law doesn't apply to them and not get dragged into their favourite hobby of killing people with darker skin. But, it's fantasy. 

Don’t you think though that to peacefully not get along is pretty good when reflecting on past history ? . It’s a funny thing this imperialist debate. All those empires of old made fortunes from their vassal states with varying degrees of cruelty and opportunism, yet it is never really included in the story what those states were like before. I think of the Indian Mughal Empire built on its own slavery or the common practice of Sutee.
I think Imperialism was and is a lot more complex than Perpetrator and Victim. Not offering excuses but history should be looked at in its entirety. 
 

( yes .. agree, they have an ongoing race problem and sometimes I think it is built in to some Americans DNA. The push back from this has created certain sectors of the anti racism educators that base their anger and proposed theories on an American experience rather than the wider world. 
We have always had our bigots but bigotry and racism were never enshrined in English law ( unless you include Jews in mediaeval Europe) I still shiver at the thought that within my lifetime the USA had schools and institutions segregated on the basis of skin colour. It’s a real WTF moment, that can’t be true .. but it is. 

Edited July 15 by jono

[Archied]

It could be argued that bringing together of Europe though having its pluses is the building of a rather big rival superpower under one governing body too,

im always conflicted on this subject as at some point the world will perhaps need to have one government if we are to reach the aims of doing what’s best for the planet and stoping these constant territorial and resources wars  but it’s also a scary thought of government getting further away from actual people ,, its an interesting topic to ponder though 🤷‍♂️

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, jono said:

Don’t you think though that to peacefully not get along is pretty good when reflecting on past history ? . It’s a funny thing this imperialist debate. All those empires of old made fortunes from their vassal states with varying degrees of cruelty and opportunism, yet it is never really included in the story what those states were like before. I think of the Indian Mughal Empire built on its own slavery or the common practice of Sutee.
I think Imperialism was and is a lot more complex than Perpetrator and Victim. Not offering excuses but history should be looked at in its entirety. 
 

( yes .. agree, they have an ongoing race problem and sometimes I think it is built in to some Americans DNA. The push back from this has created certain sectors of the anti racism educators that base their anger and proposed theories on an American experience rather than the wider world. 
We have always had our bigots but bigotry and racism were never enshrined in English law ( unless you include Jews in mediaeval Europe) I still shiver at the thought that within my lifetime the USA had schools and institutions segregated on the basis of skin colour. It’s a real WTF moment, that can’t be true .. but it is. 

Would the anti catholic laws count?

[Alph]

2 hours ago, jono said:

Don’t you think though that to peacefully not get along is pretty good when reflecting on past history ? 

Absolutely! I hope it didn't come across sarcastic. 

There's nowhere i'd rather live than in Europe and in the EU.