ramit Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 An interesting if sobering conversation from a neutral perspective on the war in Ukraine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 2 hours ago, ramit said: Of course we are being lied to, this is war after all and truth being it's first casualty and from both sides I may add. Lies lies lies 😁 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c29d03574zdo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 7 hours ago, Ram-Alf said: Lies lies lies 😁 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c29d03574zdo Now, you're getting it 👍 According to the NATO charter no nation may join it while at war Then there's this https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13595327/Ukraine-CORRUPT-join-NATO-says-major-blow-Zelensky-boost-Putin.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 2 hours ago, ramit said: You just can't leave well enough alone, always back to the insults and that really speaks volumes I don’t think disagreeing with your viewpoint is an insult. You’ve levelled similar comments at other posters. So …. He hasn’t “gone back to the insults” and it doesn’t speak volumes. What does speak volumes is your lack of reflection on the nature of Russian leadership and its ambitions; which are evident to pretty much the whole of the rest of the world. Tamworthram and Crewton 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 I watch the news on this from lots of sources and read this forum with interest , im no expert on all of the history leading up to this or the forces at play now in who s interests , I see lots of tub thumping and let’s give it them words thrown out all over the place from a safe distance , the one question I ask myself and would urge others to do with total honesty is ,,,, would I want to see my son conscripted and sent off to die alone thousands of mile from home ? Would I duck , in fact I would not stand for it , we would stand and die together if anyone tried to force my kids to be taken off to die for faceless money and power hungry loons ,,,, yes you may laugh and think this daft but this situation could turn to just that in the blink of an eye ramit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 (edited) 8 hours ago, jono said: I don’t think disagreeing with your viewpoint is an insult. You’ve levelled similar comments at other posters. So …. He hasn’t “gone back to the insults” and it doesn’t speak volumes. What does speak volumes is your lack of reflection on the nature of Russian leadership and its ambitions; which are evident to pretty much the whole of the rest of the world. Labeling me a Russian propagandist is untrue and insulting, but I will agree that in my fervor I have been overzealous with my wording at times and shall seek to correct that. If others follow suit and attempt the same that would improve the dialogue considerably. Alright then, inform me of the nature of Russian leadership and it's ambition, just don't suggest that Russia seeks a direct confrontation with NATO by invading one or more of it's member states, for that is a preposterous idea. Edited July 11 by ramit wording Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 23 minutes ago, Archied said: the one question I ask myself and would urge others to do with total honesty is ,,,, would I want to see my son conscripted and sent off to die alone thousands of mile from home ? Would I duck , in fact I would not stand for it , we would stand and die together if anyone tried to force my kids to be taken off to die for faceless money and power hungry loons ,,,, yes you may laugh and think this daft but this situation could turn to just that in the blink of an eye That's one hell of a question to answer or debate 🤷♂️ I'm an avid viewer of The World at War, I've watched all 26 episodes countless times and each one I see something that I missed previously, If you've not watched this series give it a go...the last episode will blow you away, Over 50million dead, There's one piece in it that can bring me to tears, A letter from a loved one who's wife was back at home, He describes what he's going through, He tells her how much he loves her, He says that he can't wait to see her shortly as his superior says this will be his last flight over Germany...well it was his last flight...he was killed. War is a bas***d started by those who believe they have the right to take someones land and goods...Britain in days of yore were instrumental in this. If I'm lucky I may get another 20years on Earth and If I do then WW3 has been averted and I'll go in peace ☺️ Archied 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 8 minutes ago, ramit said: Labeling me a Russian propagandist is untrue and insulting, but I will agree that in my fervor I have been overzealous with my wording at times and shall seek to correct that. If others follow suit and attempt the same that would improve the dialogue considerably. Alright then, inform me of the nature of Russian leadership and it's ambition, just don't suggest that Russia seeks a direct confrontation with NATO by invading one or more of it's member states, for that is a preposterous idea. I don’t think either Russia or NATO want a war. Russia on the other hand wants the territory under its control. The coup you wrongly refer to was the people standing up against successive Governments that knelt to Russia. Those same people having got rid of the puppets are now having to fight for their homes because Russia wants control of the territory by other means. It lost a political argument and sent the tanks in .. pretty straight forward really. (And history repeating itself. ) Crewton and Ramarena 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 8 hours ago, jono said: I don’t think either Russia or NATO want a war. Russia on the other hand wants the territory under its control. The coup you wrongly refer to was the people standing up against successive Governments that knelt to Russia. Those same people having got rid of the puppets are now having to fight for their homes because Russia wants control of the territory by other means. It lost a political argument and sent the tanks in .. pretty straight forward really. (And history repeating itself. ) Viktor Yanukovych running against the west supported Yulia Timoshenko won the 2010 presidential elections in Ukraine, this clearly shows that the population was split in it's vision for the future. Maidan was not a popular uprising therefor, it was indeed a coup. The fact is that the majority of people living in the former eastern provinces of Ukraine envision their future with Russia and like it or not they will not be returning to Ukraine. The western powers should never have meddled in Ukrainian affairs, now we have a mess of a situation where neither side will give an inch. It is my firm conviction that we, the population of the west must take a stand against this dangerous proxy war and demand peace negotiations while it is still possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 19 minutes ago, ramit said: Viktor Yanukovych running against the west supported Yulia Timoshenko won the 2010 presidential elections in Ukraine, this clearly shows that the population was split in it's vision for the future. Maidan was not a popular uprising therefor, it was indeed a coup. The fact is that the majority of people living in the former eastern provinces of Ukraine envision their future with Russia and like it or not they will not be returning to Ukraine. The western powers should never have meddled in Ukrainian affairs, now we have a mess of a situation where neither side will give an inch. It is my firm conviction that we, the population of the west must take a stand against this dangerous proxy war and demand peace negotiations while it is still possible. You suggest he was running against the west. Spun another way one could say he was running for Russia. It wasn’t a Coup. Russia has meddled in Ukraine affairs .. using weapons and soldier … actually that’s not meddling, it’s an act of war. I am quite prepared to accept that certain Ukrainian areas bordering Russia may well be akin to Northern and Southern Ireland but that does not excuse Russia's violation of another nations sovereignty. All countries seek influence over others. Not that many march in with lethal weapons. And before you quote the USA .. They went to Iraq at the behest of Kuwait (an ally) who had been invaded. And yes 60 years ago in the Cold War they went to Vietnam. .. it’s history .. I am talking NOW. I am sure the people of the west would want peace but they don’t want appeasement of a bullying dictator.. we’ve been there before. Ramit .. think. Jeremy Corbyn is still alive and still campaigning as are recent leaders of the BNP/Britain first, I can’t remember any Lib Dem’s, Tories or Labour politicians that have died in mysterious circumstances.. There is a reason for this. Is Russia so wonderful and Putin such a gifted leader that somehow with the ups and downs of life and democratic politics he has remained in power for 20 odd years ? Or is there another reason ? In opposition to your call to people of the west, I suggest the people of Russia (if they dare ) demand Putin brings their boys back home. Crewton 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 7 hours ago, jono said: You suggest he was running against the west. Spun another way one could say he was running for Russia. It wasn’t a Coup. Russia has meddled in Ukraine affairs .. using weapons and soldier … actually that’s not meddling, it’s an act of war. I am quite prepared to accept that certain Ukrainian areas bordering Russia may well be akin to Northern and Southern Ireland but that does not excuse Russia's violation of another nations sovereignty. All countries seek influence over others. Not that many march in with lethal weapons. And before you quote the USA .. They went to Iraq at the behest of Kuwait (an ally) who had been invaded. And yes 60 years ago in the Cold War they went to Vietnam. .. it’s history .. I am talking NOW. I am sure the people of the west would want peace but they don’t want appeasement of a bullying dictator.. we’ve been there before. Ramit .. think. Jeremy Corbyn is still alive and still campaigning as are recent leaders of the BNP/Britain first, I can’t remember any Lib Dem’s, Tories or Labour politicians that have died in mysterious circumstances.. There is a reason for this. Is Russia so wonderful and Putin such a gifted leader that somehow with the ups and downs of life and democratic politics he has remained in power for 20 odd years ? Or is there another reason ? In opposition to your call to people of the west, I suggest the people of Russia (if they dare ) demand Putin brings their boys back home. We could go back and forth for days and weeks without reaching a common consensus, we see the world in a different light. I have given my perspective on this tragic situation and I feel that it is important that all views be heard, that it is dangerous for only certain opinions to be aired and considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 We could go back and forth for days and weeks without reaching a common consensus, we see the world in a different light. I have given my perspective on this tragic situation and I feel that it is important that all views be heard, that it is dangerous for only certain opinions to be aired and considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Just now, ramit said: An interesting if sobering conversation from a neutral perspective on the war in Ukraine. Are we sure a YT channel (Real Reporter) run by former RT reporter, and Russian national Konstantin Rozhkov is truly neutral? This seems to have a clear pro Russia bias to me, albeit with an effort to have appear balanced at times. Not Col McGregor levels of ridiculous lies and blatant bias, but definitely not neutral in my opinion. Crewton, Ramarena and jono 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 7 hours ago, Highgate said: Are we sure a YT channel (Real Reporter) run by former RT reporter, and Russian national Konstantin Rozhkov is truly neutral? This seems to have a clear pro Russia bias to me, albeit with an effort to have appear balanced at times. Not Col McGregor levels of ridiculous lies and blatant bias, but definitely not neutral in my opinion. Funny you should write that, as I felt it leaned a bit the other way 😁 Highgate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 2 hours ago, ramit said: According to the NATO charter no nation may join it while at war I humbly suggest you both read AND comprehend what any article posted on here actually says before commenting : Quote However, there may be some disappointment in Kyiv that there was no clear public indication as to how long it would be until Ukraine was offered full membership. That says Ukraine won't be admitted while the war is still ongoing. jono 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 16 hours ago, ramit said: The arrogance, amnesia, hypocrisy and sickening double standards exhibited by the west and regurgitated by it's blind supporters apparently knows no bounds. 5 hours ago, ramit said: You just can't leave well enough alone, always back to the insults and that really speaks volumes jono 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Just now, ramit said: Funny you should write that, as I felt it leaned a bit the other way 😁 Admittedly finding reports or opinions that really are coming from a neutral and balanced (as possible) position is becoming increasingly difficult on the internet these days. ramit and jono 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 8 hours ago, Crewton said: That says Ukraine won't be admitted while the war is still ongoing. Making it up as you go along, I did read it but It says no such thing directly. It cannot be stated that Ukraine is on an irreversible path to NATO membership when it's corruption stands in the way and the fact they are at war with Russia without any seeming end in sight. We don't even know if there will be a Ukraine in the future. In other words it's a potentially empty promise, a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, Highgate said: Admittedly finding reports or opinions that really are coming from a neutral and balanced (as possible) position is becoming increasingly difficult on the internet these days. I'm not having that...he was always good For a laugh😁 Edited July 11 by Ram-Alf Highgate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 3 hours ago, ramit said: We could go back and forth for days and weeks without reaching a common consensus, we see the world in a different light. I have given my perspective on this tragic situation and I feel that it is important that all views be heard, that it is dangerous for only certain opinions to be aired and considered. So what you are saying is that was absolutely ok for Russia to invade the Ukraine with armed forces because of whatever political justifications you have given. You are right .. we will never reach a consensus. Political arguments are one thing but in this instance Russia is the initiator of physical aggression in order to achieve its political aims. That fellow Ram is just plain wrong. As a “peace lover” you know that. I also note that your banal riposte post ignored every single point and illustration I advanced. We could go back and forth, but you didn’t because your argument is weak and largely indefensible. I know there are sides to arguments but the minute someone sends soldiers with guns they lost the argument Crewton, Ramarena and Mick Brolly 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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