Pearl Ram Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Can’t say where I work specifically but we had a company wide Email today explaining two reasons parts of Hertfordshire have gone into tier 3 (and I understand some might think the second reason unbelievable) but apparently in the 12-16 years age group many have been sharing drinks and...chewing gum. I jest not. ?♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 19 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: Yeah, we should have gone for the approach Sweden has taken, which has been regularly advocated by freedom lovers everywhere. Even though the Swedish government has just come out and apologised for the much higher death rate in Sweden vs other countries in Scandinavia, I'm sure we can invent some reason as to why Sweden is totally different to Norway, Denmark and Finland. Sweden had over 20k cases yesterday alone i think, for a small population they now have the highest infection rate in europe (i think). Sadly no doubt deaths will follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteHorseRam Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 6 minutes ago, Pearl Ram said: but apparently in the 12-16 years age group many have been sharing drinks and...chewing gum. Snogging then. that's what it was called in my day (late 20th Century) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteHorseRam Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 14 minutes ago, TexasRam said: The latter ? haha and I was living there for a few years when I set up this account. I think you may have just dashed @Bob The Badger 's hopes ...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Marriott Ram99 said: Personally would have done a hard lockdown for 1 month then nothing after that no matter how many cases they are because the opportunity costs and externalities of the decisions are too big and its not in the governments right to take peoples rights away. People can make their own decisions and if the wider population after a few months in a certain constituency were desperate for a lockdown then its up to that areas MP to give people that option. Government cack handedly imposing rules people aren't willing to follow for understandable reasons doesn't make sense. Give everyone their own ducking choices. Lets say this was the approach taken. How is it possibly implemented? I get that people have a desire to go about their business, see friends, go to the pub and so on, but I am just not sure how its possible to say let everyone make their own choices. Im assuming by everyone making their own choices, it means Elderly and Vulnerable choose to shield themselves? As a result of them isolating themselves it also likely means that their own households have to isolate too. I dont know the figures but i think @Albertsuggested somewhile ago that 'isolating' the elderly and vulnerable and their families would be somewhere in the region of 20 million people. I dont have stats to back this up, @Albertis much better at that, but the cost if we have to cover everyones salary who has made their own choice as you put it to isolate could be considerably be more than is being paid out today to cover losses. So i think its easy to say let those who arent at risk be allowed to get on with life as normal, but because that would no doubt mean a much higher spread of the virus, it sort of forces not only the elderly and vulnerable to shield but their families and children too. As someone who had to shield in the spring/summer and november i have always said id be open to a solution that allowed the country to get back to normal if it meant i had to continue to shield, however to date i havent seen anyone put forward a solution on how that could possibly work, other than taking the approach that life needs to get back to normal and so be it if those at risk die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marriot Ram99 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 52 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: Yeah, we should have gone for the approach Sweden has taken, which has been regularly advocated by freedom lovers everywhere. Even though the Swedish government has just come out and apologised for the much higher death rate in Sweden vs other countries in Scandinavia, I'm sure we can invent some reason as to why Sweden is totally different to Norway, Denmark and Finland. With how Sweden are politically it is hardly surprising they have felt the need to apologise for their actions even if they were correct or not. No need to apologise, you make a decision and stick with it none of this changing approach every other day nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marriot Ram99 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 25 minutes ago, Sith Happens said: Lets say this was the approach taken. How is it possibly implemented? I get that people have a desire to go about their business, see friends, go to the pub and so on, but I am just not sure how its possible to say let everyone make their own choices. Im assuming by everyone making their own choices, it means Elderly and Vulnerable choose to shield themselves? As a result of them isolating themselves it also likely means that their own households have to isolate too. I dont know the figures but i think @Albertsuggested somewhile ago that 'isolating' the elderly and vulnerable and their families would be somewhere in the region of 20 million people. I dont have stats to back this up, @Albertis much better at that, but the cost if we have to cover everyones salary who has made their own choice as you put it to isolate could be considerably be more than is being paid out today to cover losses. So i think its easy to say let those who arent at risk be allowed to get on with life as normal, but because that would no doubt mean a much higher spread of the virus, it sort of forces not only the elderly and vulnerable to shield but their families and children too. As someone who had to shield in the spring/summer and november i have always said id be open to a solution that allowed the country to get back to normal if it meant i had to continue to shield, however to date i havent seen anyone put forward a solution on how that could possibly work, other than taking the approach that life needs to get back to normal and so be it if those at risk die. The vulnerable don't have to sheild because not everyone wants to live in fear of death then eventually die of old age in the near future anyway then consequently loose their precious time locked away with their basic rights removed. If you are vulnerable and want to shield that's fine if you are vulnerable and don't give a duck that is also perfectly fine. Also I wouldn't give compensation for 20 million people just money for the poorest who can't even afford sufficient food or fuel to keep the house warm, probably about 1 or 2 million I would guess but not sure on the exact statistics. Also even within families I'd expect nobody to shield for me if I was vulnerable unless I was extremely at risk because people have to live as normal in my opinion where possible, this is just robbing young peoples opportunities and old peoples years if they are shut away in poor circumstances like many. People have to make their own choices not the government making piss poor one's that are half assed and achieve hardly anything but screwing both opportunities, mental and physical well being, life experience and expectancy and the economy short and medium term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 15 minutes ago, Marriott Ram99 said: With how Sweden are politically it is hardly surprising they have felt the need to apologise for their actions even if they were correct or not. No need to apologise, you make a decision and stick with it none of this changing approach every other day nonsense. Got no idea what that means. They made a decision, it didn't really pay off, then they apologised and have announced there will be an inquiry into what went wrong. But their choices have continually been pushed as the right way to do things as they appeared more libertarian. You are still advocating this approach even now. Our esteemed leaders keep changing their mind, never apologise or take any responsibility and treat us like morons who have to be continually promised good news that never turns out to be true. Both Sweden and us have got plenty wrong, but the style of leadership in Sweden seems like something that most people would prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marriot Ram99 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: Got no idea what that means. They made a decision, it didn't really pay off, then they apologised and have announced there will be an inquiry into what went wrong. But their choices have continually been pushed as the right way to do things as they appeared more libertarian. You are still advocating this approach even now. Our esteemed leaders keep changing their mind, never apologise or take any responsibility and treat us like morons who have to be continually promised good news that never turns out to be true. Both Sweden and us have got plenty wrong, but the style of leadership in Sweden seems like something that most people would prefer. Pay off in what terms? As cruel and uncaring as it may sound the death statistics alone aren't the indicator of success or failure, mental and physical health, wellbeing, employment and other factors are also very important in these decisions. Plenty of side effects on health terms that the government don't share either because either the information hasn't been properly collected or it doesn't suit the narratives they want to put out that rationalised decisions to lockdown I don't know in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Marriott Ram99 said: Pay off in what terms? As cruel and uncaring as it may sound the death statistics alone aren't the indicator of success or failure, mental and physical health, wellbeing, employment and other factors are also very important in these decisions. Plenty of side effects on health terms that the government don't share either because either the information hasn't been properly collected or it doesn't suit the narratives they want to put out that rationalised decisions to lockdown I don't know in that regard. So, if mental and physical health, wellbeing, employment, etc are the keys, then surely you're full of praise for the strategies that Australia and New Zealand implemented, given that they perform better on all of those points than places like Sweden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 4 hours ago, ariotofmyown said: Yeah, we should have gone for the approach Sweden has taken, which has been regularly advocated by freedom lovers everywhere. Even though the Swedish government has just come out and apologised for the much higher death rate in Sweden vs other countries in Scandinavia, I'm sure we can invent some reason as to why Sweden is totally different to Norway, Denmark and Finland. It's got an 'S' in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1of4 Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 It appears that Johnson is shirking his responsibilities over the handling of how we deal with keeping safe from the coronavirus over the Christmas holiday. He has put the choice on what we do or don't do during Christmas, firmly on to the shoulders of each individual. Which should make a few poster on here, that have been saying we should have this individual choice and less government restrictions, happy. I suppose we'll find out a couple of weeks into the new year how well that goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Hmm, some on this forum will likely tell you that New Zealand isn't all that different to many places in The EU ? How you are supposed to compare an island nation to the 20+ landlocked countries of The EU is beyond me. Even if we reduce The EU to just The UK, we still end up with this 'chaos'... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13500387/boris-johnson-cut-back-christmas-plans/ *apologies in advance for the below par tabloid press source of the article but you get the point - an island nation can react far quicker and more effectively than interconnected countries bound by various treaties and philosophies. Or in the case of The UK, 4 nations all apparently pulling in different directions. Roll on my turn in the vaccine queue ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 16 minutes ago, maxjam said: Hmm, some on this forum will likely tell you that New Zealand isn't all that different to many places in The EU ? How you are supposed to compare an island nation to the 20+ landlocked countries of The EU is beyond me. Even if we reduce The EU to just The UK, we still end up with this 'chaos'... The issue isn't whether you're surrounded by water, but rather, whether you can control movement. Britain is a literal island, so if you're argument is 'well, borders are impossible', the UK still could have. 16 minutes ago, maxjam said: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13500387/boris-johnson-cut-back-christmas-plans/ *apologies in advance for the below par tabloid press source of the article but you get the point - an island nation can react far quicker and more effectively than interconnected countries bound by various treaties and philosophies. Or in the case of The UK, 4 nations all apparently pulling in different directions. Roll on my turn in the vaccine queue ? The UK is an island nation. New Zealand also had treaties, etc with other countries. As noted, the EU did not stop countries from closing borders, instituting quarantines, etc. 18 minutes ago, Norman said: Honestly. You have no idea. It was never out of control in Australia. Out of control is an estimated 100,000 cases per day in the UK alone by the end of March. Yet the UK brought those numbers right down later. Victoria was, however, out of control. 18 minutes ago, Norman said: You can't stop travel here like you can in Australia. Why not? Even if we accept the notion that for some reason, that doesn't stop the UK from instituting quarantines for travelers. The issue was lack of action, not lack of ability. 18 minutes ago, Norman said: I bet you'd be shocked by how many people commute to London daily from my town of 60,000 and 120 miles away. This is pretty common in Australia also. I bet you'd be shocked by how urbanised Australia actually is. Despite that, Victoria did indeed ring fence Melbourne at the high of the outbreak, and prevented such commuting. 18 minutes ago, Norman said: London is France's 5th largest city or something like that. The amount of travel over distances and countries equivalent of your states cannot compare. Blah blah blah blah blah. France's? It's not about 'comparing', Australia doesn't have the population of a whole continent, but what is notable is that the country is very interconnected with travel, but has shut that down for the greater good. Again, it's a lack of action, not a lack of ability for the UK. 18 minutes ago, Norman said: We've done this to death. It's boring. Blah Blah Blah Excellent argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 8 hours ago, ariotofmyown said: Even though the Swedish government has just come out and apologised for the much higher death rate in Sweden vs other countries in Scandinavia, I'm sure we can invent some reason as to why Sweden is totally different to Norway, Denmark and Finland I didn't think this was actually gonna kick off yet another debate about why we can/can't compare the UK to Australia/NZ/Taiwain/South Korea etc. Can't we just all accept that we were unprepared, and then stupid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 8 hours ago, Pearl Ram said: Can’t say where I work specifically but we had a company wide Email today explaining two reasons parts of Hertfordshire have gone into tier 3 (and I understand some might think the second reason unbelievable) but apparently in the 12-16 years age group many have been sharing drinks and...chewing gum. I jest not. ?♂️ To be fair to the government, there's no way they could have known that 30+ kids in every classroom in the country would have led to an increase in infections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 As a patriot, this makes you proud. In mega rich London Town too. https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-for-the-first-time-in-its-history-unicef-will-help-feed-kids-in-the-uk-12163515 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 8 hours ago, Pearl Ram said: Can’t say where I work specifically but we had a company wide Email today explaining two reasons parts of Hertfordshire have gone into tier 3 (and I understand some might think the second reason unbelievable) but apparently in the 12-16 years age group many have been sharing drinks and...chewing gum. I jest not. ?♂️ You work for the Mail/Sun/Express/Telegraph?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 16 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: As a patriot, this makes you proud. In mega rich London Town too. https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-for-the-first-time-in-its-history-unicef-will-help-feed-kids-in-the-uk-12163515 If there is a hill for this obscene government to die on, it should be this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Eddie said: If there is a hill for this obscene government to die on, it should be this. A green hill far away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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