Gone Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said: Education lost? Maybe 'stalled' at worst. In fact, with more actually attending [online] lectures, uni students may actually perform better. They may lose fewer brain cells as a result of excessive drinking too. Experiences missed out on? Drinking and sleeping in all day can be done next year. You might find it "infuriating and frankly bizarre" that someone appears to value lives over jobs, but I'm equally 'infuriated' that you want to stop me from seeing my parents and grandparents for an unspecified amount of time. The 1st bit of your post is BS, you can’t compare online learning with actual learning and the experience of being with your peers/fellow students. When I did my Masters I learnt more from the interaction with others and their experience than I did from the lectures. Also just “stalling” kids education has a huge impact on their ability to learn and grow, there are numerous studies that indicate this if you’re interested. Thr 2nd bit of your post you are getting me completely wrong, im the opposite to what you are saying. Go see your parents, go see your grandparents, why shouldn’t you? Take precautions but live your bloody life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 18 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: And if you think you can correctly predict the future when we are in the middle of a pandemic then you clearly should be advising world Governments rather than wasting your time on a football forum. Hang on, when I note observed impacts, based on what is actually happening right now I'm "predicting the future", but when you're speculating wildly about what might change if you go against the available evidence right now and open up isn't? To quote you post from before: 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: I shouldn't concern yourself too much that people want to get on with their lives and try and ensure their children dont spend theirs paying for completely ridiculous amf over the top measures, designed to protect a very very small minority of people. I'd also add that there is a large population out there that are, and will continue to be, unaffected by this virus. I find it more concerning that the Government seem to be completely disregarding them in their decision making. Hmmm... 18 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: I see that 2,600 scientists and 3,300 medical have now signed a letter advocating the herd immunity strategy. How would this affect Australia? Would its economy continue to do as well as you are leading us to believe it is doing? Would be interesting to know the background of these professionals, as well as a full census across 'all scientists' and 'medical professions' for these purposes. For medical professionals alone, that's not exactly an impressive number. There are around 200k medical doctors in the UK alone. Criticism of Prof Gupta's position has been noted across several pages here. Her group suggested back in March that herd immunity was already close, and hence there was limited risk of second waves. That went well. The Great Barrington Declaration, which is what you're referring to, has been widely criticised already, largely based on its underpinning assumptions, as well as the ethics involved. It makes a lot of sweeping assumptions about the disease which, to an extent, we already know to be unlikely, particularly around herd immunity. As to Australia, it wouldn't, because the disease is already under control throughout the majority of the country. Going for hypothetical herd immunity on the assumption we're already close would be truly silly. Given we're already recovering economically, I'm glad we're led by saner minds. 18 minutes ago, TexasRam said: The 1st bit of your post is BS, you can’t compare online learning with actual learning and the experience of being with your peers/fellow students. When I did my Masters I learnt more from the interaction with others and their experience than I did from the lectures. Also just “stalling” kids education has a huge impact on their ability to learn and grow, there are numerous studies that indicate this if you’re interested. I mean, you can literally compare them, as they are both modes of education. Some things work better for some, but I do agree it's not an ideal setup. Stalling short term while a country gets their act together is better than years of uncertainty generated by failing to control the disease at the very least. Particularly given many educators around the world fit the 'high risk category', it would be fanciful to think that a 'let it burn' strategy of any kind is going to help the education front. Where I am, School students missed a whopping 2 weeks this year. 2 weeks. That's the value of controlling the disease though. 18 minutes ago, TexasRam said: Thr 2nd bit of your post you are getting my completely wrong, im the opposite to what you are saying. Go see your parents, go see your grandparents, why shouldn’t you? Take precautions but live your bloody life. This is a disease that spreads silently, you are infectious before you're symptomatic, and it's highly contagious. What you're advocating for is basically killing people's relatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 4 minutes ago, Albert said: This is a disease that spreads silently, you are infectious before you're symptomatic, I normally go and see my elderly mum on a Sunday, but I'm mindful that I could be asymptomatic and contagious for 3 days, so I've started going on a Thursday instead. So far so good. Hardly rocket science is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 9 hours ago, Eddie said: 1. Young people go to pub / party / rave 2. Alcohol 3. "You're my best mate, you are" 4. Young people go to university 5. ??? Not sure which question you're answering their Eddie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said: I think there were almost certainly a lot of undiagnosed tests in the universities back then, but almost certainly less. You have to consider that Feb/March is heading into exams/finals season, and money tends to be tighter, so the student social life naturally quietens down around then. Compared to now - not only Freshers season, but also on the back of them all being locked down for months, with uncertainty over results and the future in general. They're partying harder than ever And on the subjects of testing/Nottingham - my relatives in Nottingham are saying that the test website has been crashing since Monday and no one can even book a test Maybe true yes but I don't think students are partying harder than ever. Nightclubs not open, bars closing at 10/11. Many students are being sensible. However, I agree the parties and/or the smaller social gatherings have been pushed into flats/apartments/student digs where they are probably even closer together. Back in Feb/March the clubs and bars were open fully. I just think many had it, didn't really know they had it, felt a little crappy for a few days (or were most likely fine) and carried on as normal. It's the sixth formers in Feb/March who remained fine who have now gone to university and I imagine that's the group it is running through right now, not the older uni years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuff264 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 ZOE have released their latest update, they have been monitoring infections using volunteers recording on an app as well as random swabs, number of cases and ONS surveys. They peg R to be at 1.1 for the UK and 1.0 for England, which is pretty good and backs up some of the feeling that we are levelling off. If you want to see some graphs - https://covid.joinzoe.com/your-contribution?utm_source=App If anyone wants to contribute it takes 30 seconds a day to report how you are feeling and the more who report the more accurate they become, so far they have been pretty good including predicting this second wave before anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 36 minutes ago, Albert said: Criticism of Prof Gupta's position has been noted across several pages here. Her group suggested back in March that herd immunity was already close, and hence there was limited risk of second waves. That went well. Your basic argument boils down to 'one size fits all'. For reasons we discussed and disagreed upon the other day - I'm not going to get drawn into that circular argument again - this can't possibly be true as we're still in the midst of the pandemic. Whilst we may be saving lives now the cost to the economy and future deaths won't be known for several years. I pulled that one paragraph from your replay to point out that not only is she a professor of theoretical epidemiology at Oxford University and maybe slightly more knowledgeable than any of us here, but in conjunction with the much maligned Swedish approach which is beginning to gain traction again now that second waves hitting major EU nations, simply repeating Australia got hit first, hardest and dealt with it the best is unproductive and ignorant of differing circumstances around the world. https://www.forbes.com/sites/alejandrochafuen/2020/09/20/the-covid-pandemic-too-early-to-crown-sweden/ EDIT: And for anyone thats not read it, here is an article from Sky News today that talks about The Great Barrington declaration in which 'top scientists' call for herd immunity; https://news.sky.com/story/scientists-and-politicians-split-over-how-to-tackle-rising-covid-infections-as-northern-leaders-say-restrictions-are-not-working-12096597 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 9 minutes ago, Shuff264 said: ZOE have released their latest update, they have been monitoring infections using volunteers recording on an app as well as random swabs, number of cases and ONS surveys. They peg R to be at 1.1 for the UK and 1.0 for England, which is pretty good and backs up some of the feeling that we are levelling off. If you want to see some graphs - https://covid.joinzoe.com/your-contribution?utm_source=App If anyone wants to contribute it takes 30 seconds a day to report how you are feeling and the more who report the more accurate they become, so far they have been pretty good including predicting this second wave before anyone else. Call me Mr Thicky but how does an R rate of 1 or just over, marry with all the graphs they also have showing rapid increases in cases in the past few weeks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bwash_Ram Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54442386 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Just now, Albert said: f you feel I've missed your point, the please, enlighten me to what you actually meant. Go see them and take precautions, I’m not saying do sentence them to death. However we can’t carry on not seeing people forever that’s ludicrous. See them and take the precautions, as another poster as mentioned it’s not rocket science. If you don’t get it now please don’t bother replying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuff264 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 11 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said: Call me Mr Thicky but how does an R rate of 1 or just over, marry with all the graphs they also have showing rapid increases in cases in the past few weeks? Theres always a lag in these things, it will have been at 1.2-1.4 ish. Plus this is only an estimate, in the full report they give a range for each R depending on confidence level. If you view by specimen date it looks like we may have levelled but we need to wait for more data, we'll know alot more by the end of the week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 6 minutes ago, TexasRam said: Go see them and take precautions, I’m not saying do sentence them to death. However we can’t carry on not seeing people forever that’s ludicrous. See them and take the precautions, as another poster as mentioned it’s not rocket science. If you don’t get it now please don’t bother replying Define precautions. Unless your precautions are 14 days isolation prior to visiting them, with Covid tests on days 1 and 12, you are risking their lives while the virus spreads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 8 minutes ago, Albert said: Define precautions. Unless your precautions are 14 days isolation prior to visiting them, with Covid tests on days 1 and 12, you are risking their lives while the virus spreads. Oh for gods sake, lock up everyone and never interact again. Give you head a wobble, wear a mask, wash your hands keep your distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EtoileSportiveDeDerby Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Once a week using the bbc site I check various locations in the UK where family member live to see infection rate per 100,000. It does not take long but I have to type it everytime, does anyone know of a site where those figures are given per town/cities or a local level ? Of all the big cities, strangely enough the place with lowest numbers seems to be London way below rest of the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 1 minute ago, TexasRam said: Oh for gods sake, lock up everyone and never interact again. Give you head a wobble, wear a mask, wash your hands keep your distance. Even then, it carries a large risk when the virus is out in the wild. For those advocating for the 'let it burn' method, while protecting the vulnerable, what you're essentially advocating for is for them to be in perpetual lockdown, isolated from the rest. I think your issue here is that you don't quite get the risks involved, nor how contagious the disease is. Masks and social distancing are strong part of mitigation population wide, but they reduce spread, rather than prevent it. They'll bring down the number of people infection per infection, but they don't make it zero. That ultimately is the risk that you're taking if this keeps burning and you visit people at risk. That is the trade off some on here are really advocating for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 32 minutes ago, Albert said: If you feel I've missed your point, the please, enlighten me to what you actually meant. I've got no desire to spend all day arguing semantics with you again. Neither can be bothered to argue the 'very transparent strawman' that I have apparently constructed. Furthermore I am not appealing to authority, merely putting forwards the argument that there is increasing opposition to the lockdown narrative that we have been fed. I'm not sure that I will be able to enlighten you as to what I actually meant however as I find you're argument to be very dismissive of points you disagree with, which I guess is your right. 32 minutes ago, Albert said: As to ignorance, ignorance is ignoring that examples as different as Vietnam and New Zealand are indeed showing that countries from different backgrounds can indeed reach the same goal in different ways. There are plenty of others in effective control too. Although I didn't ignore examples that you gave. I replied to arguments about Australia, New Zealand, Vietnam and Thailand iirc. Vietnam in particular backs up my argument just as much as it does yours - different economy, differing volume of visitors, massively different way of life which led to their better response etc. But I guess my interpretation of things is wrong so I'll leave it here for today. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-53690711 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 10 minutes ago, Albert said: I think your issue here is that you don't quite get the risks involved, nor how contagious the disease is. I think know as much as you and as much as every other everyday joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 3 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said: Education lost? Maybe 'stalled' at worst. In fact, with more actually attending [online] lectures, uni students may actually perform better. They may lose fewer brain cells as a result of excessive drinking too. Experiences missed out on? Drinking and sleeping in all day can be done next year. You might find it "infuriating and frankly bizarre" that someone appears to value lives over jobs, but I'm equally 'infuriated' that you want to stop me from seeing my parents and grandparents for an unspecified amount of time. Online lectures are worse quality than in person teaching. We used to do seminars in classes of 20, and now they shove 80 of you on a zoom call. So, ignoring your patronising speech about students, the teaching is worse and the students are highly unlikely to perform better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: I see that 2,600 scientists and 3,300 medical have now signed a letter advocating the herd immunity strategy. Does start to threaten the ''we're just following the science'' line that Boris, Hancock and co keep using to justify more restrictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uptherams Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 https://summit.news/2020/10/07/over-6000-scientists-doctors-sign-anti-lockdown-petition/ Listen to the experts certain people say. All the scientists and doctors believe and instruct this, they say. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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