Yet another Chris Martin thread.... Yes really

[The_Sheriff]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Dear me, and with Marriott or Waghorn it will be different? Oh btw the never score a lot of goals is very funny. #TwitterTroll

Yes we would. They can run in behind. Do you see it as coincidence since waghorns red we are barely threatning the opposition goal? 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

9 hours ago, Cocu_Doodle_Do said:

Yes we would. They can run in behind. Do you see it as coincidence since waghorns red we are barely threatning the opposition goal? 

The only coincidence is that we have played the top six teams again after that point....Waggers would have made no difference in these games,just as he didn't when we played them at the start of the season.

Be good to have him back as a winger however as he and Martin worked well together.

[cheron85]

9 hours ago, Cocu_Doodle_Do said:

Yes we would. They can run in behind. Do you see it as coincidence since waghorns red we are barely threatning the opposition goal? 

That's naive at best - We barely threatened the goal against Forest and we were exactly at our creative best against Preston - And Waggers played in both of those games

Against Millwall and Reading (lesser teams) we looked good - Against Forest, West Brom, Brentford and Cardiff (better teams) we haven't - I'm not sure you can put that down to Martin - Especially since (as with the goal yesterday) he provides an excellent focal point for Sibley and our inside forwards to get past him

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the calibre of competition we faced

[England Ram]

I've been a fan of Martin for a while, but his lack of movement does cause us some real issues.

It was not just him over the last few games, it is our entire front unit, but Martin has struggled against better center halves. As I've said elsewhere, we aim to progress the ball through the thirds of the pitch and not waste it, the problem with doing this as you approach the final third is that the forwards need to be mobile and finding space, or showing to receive the ball. This is not happening at the moment and having a static front 3 is one of the big problems. Marriott came on and we started moving their back line around, to no avail in the end, but they at least had to move to do their job.

We have no money to spend so we will have to cope with the same next year unless one of the reserves comes in. I know we have played some of the top teams over the last few games, but, he has made himself easy to mark with his lack of movement against those sides.

[RoyMac5]

43 minutes ago, England Ram said:

I've been a fan of Martin for a while, but his lack of movement does cause us some real issues.

It was not just him over the last few games, it is our entire front unit, but Martin has struggled against better center halves. As I've said elsewhere, we aim to progress the ball through the thirds of the pitch and not waste it, the problem with doing this as you approach the final third is that the forwards need to be mobile and finding space, or showing to receive the ball. This is not happening at the moment and having a static front 3 is one of the big problems. Marriott came on and we started moving their back line around, to no avail in the end, but they at least had to move to do their job.

We have no money to spend so we will have to cope with the same next year unless one of the reserves comes in. I know we have played some of the top teams over the last few games, but, he has made himself easy to mark with his lack of movement against those sides.

What I’ve seen enough of in recent games is that when players have gone to make runs the ball isn’t played through to them - I’ve seen Martin do it (including the helpful pointing at where to play the ball) numerous times. We very rarely play through balls, I think because we do not want to risk losing possession. We as a team are risk averse in our play. Now whether that is currently exaggerated to assist our limited squad choices or whether it is Cocu’s preferred style of play only time will show. I think this season Cocu has made best use of his very limited squad, but it hasn’t always been pretty.

[The_Sheriff]

7 hours ago, cheron85 said:

That's naive at best - We barely threatened the goal against Forest and we were exactly at our creative best against Preston - And Waggers played in both of those games

Against Millwall and Reading (lesser teams) we looked good - Against Forest, West Brom, Brentford and Cardiff (better teams) we haven't - I'm not sure you can put that down to Martin - Especially since (as with the goal yesterday) he provides an excellent focal point for Sibley and our inside forwards to get past him

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the calibre of competition we faced

Waggy hardly played against forest. So just preston then?

Waghorn will be in for martin against leeds i expect. Its not martins fault solely we havent threatened but he contributes with his weaknesses- inability to break through defences due to pace and dribbling.

I wouldnt agree millwall are a lesser team than cardiff either which you use as part of your argument.

[cheron85]

15 hours ago, Cocu_Doodle_Do said:

Waggy hardly played against forest. So just preston then?

Waghorn will be in for martin against leeds i expect. Its not martins fault solely we havent threatened but he contributes with his weaknesses- inability to break through defences due to pace and dribbling.

I wouldnt agree millwall are a lesser team than cardiff either which you use as part of your argument.

Waggers will be in against Leeds because we tend to play him away from home - And because whilst he scored Knight also had a bit of a shocker

It's an odd argument that Martin's dribbling and pace is the problem since when Waggers plays up front he tends to play most of the game with his back to goal - Sibley's second against Millwall came from Waggers playing very much as Martin does and Martin helped provide the third - Waggers did well against Reading and Preston (ish) - Martin got the goal against Forest and was instrumental in the goal against Cardiff

They both have different qualities and both have been picked by Cocu to add different elements - And what it boils down to is there's a professional manager running our team who rates Martin enough to pick him regularly and want him to sign a new contract

Cardiff were a Premier League side last year with experience of what it takes to win promotion - Millwall aren't

[Ghost of Clough]

On 12/07/2020 at 09:25, RoyMac5 said:

Better tell Waghorn that. Don't you think any Brentford striker benefits from the service the others provide? We risk signing another Blackman otherwise!

Watkins Brentford league stats:

2017–18 Championship 45 10 

2018–19 Championship 41 10

2019–20 Championship 37 22

 

It's worth noting Watkins played on the wing before this season

[cheron85]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

It's worth noting Watkins played on the wing before this season

I was going to add "and he's really tall" but checked and he's not!

I think it highlights just how short our team are that he looked tall next to them - We played Evans (184cm) and Clarke (185cm) against him and it made him look tall (at 180cm)

Brentford had Pinnock (187cm) and Jansson (194cm) against Martin (178cm) - It's a real showcase of just how good his positioning and timing is that he ever wins any headers at all

[TuffLuff]

I understand the Martin criticism is small but do have to wonder where it comes from. Cocu has had more out of Martin this season in terms of minutes, lacks of injuries and actual contribution than Evans, Malone, Holmes, Marriott, Jozefzoon, Bielik and others. I don’t think Martin is really an issue at the club, it’s more that we aren’t getting enough from these senior players. Some of that is down to misfortune admittingly but we need to get more of them if we want to succeed.

Edit: maybe should point out that I’m not saying any of these players aren’t good enough, I’m just making the point that Martin’s contribution has been much higher than a lot of the other squad members who we need to get more out of over a season.

[Ellafella]

Did we pay £4.5 million for Waghorn? I seem to recall that we did. Don’t think it’s unfair to say we haven’t seen that sort of return from him. 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

31 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

Did we pay £4.5 million for Waghorn? I seem to recall that we did. Don’t think it’s unfair to say we haven’t seen that sort of return from him. 

I think all our forward players without exception have come up short this season to be honest.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

1 hour ago, The Orange Pimpernel said:

I think all our forward players without exception have come up short this season to be honest.

I think that's a little unfair on Waggers and martin.

Waggers has put massive effort into the season and his only real let downs were his penalty misses (grrrrr) and his red card.

Martin has pretty much exceeded most people's expectations and it's only the last few games when he has come into question but that's more down to the overall weakness of the squad against better quality opposition.

Lawrence's personal and professional discipline had been his massive downfall,admittedly and that has to change quickly

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

5 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

I think that's a little unfair on Waggers and martin.

Waggers has put massive effort into the season and his only real let downs were his penalty misses (grrrrr) and his red card.

Martin has pretty much exceeded most people's expectations and it's only the last few games when he has come into question but that's more down to the overall weakness of the squad against better quality opposition.

Lawrence's personal and professional discipline had been his massive downfall,admittedly and that has to change quickly

Just think we need to be a lot better if we are going for top 2 next season. 

[Beardmm]

I’m not a massive fan of Waghorn for a variety of reasons but I genuinely thought he had a shout of being player of the year this year. He was/is our top scorer despite switching roles between central striker and right of the three. He works hard, gives us a physical presence that is sadly lacking at times without him and links well with Bogle. However, he doesn’t have the best first touch and if he could finish he would have 20 goals plus this season. If you could take the physicality of Waghorn and add Marriott’s finishing you would have a hell of a player 

[Animal is a Ram]

 

[cheron85]

16 hours ago, The Orange Pimpernel said:

Just think we need to be a lot better if we are going for top 2 next season. 

I read that and my heart screamed no, but my head agreed

However - I think our problem isn't players finishing ability - I think we don't create enough chances

We're 9th in the league for shots on target per game

However

We're 20th on total shots per game, 20th on shots from in the penalty area and 22nd for shots from inside the 6 yard box

If we can cut out the mistakes and add some extra creative, attacking play (new inside forwards) I think we have the quality to finish chances

[Ghost of Clough]

17 hours ago, The Orange Pimpernel said:

Just think we need to be a lot better if we are going for top 2 next season. 

I don’t think we’re far off. A new player at RW would make us a lot more varied in attack, giving the rest of the team more space as well. Bogle won’t be as exposed at their LB will be conscious of us on the counter, and gives Bogle more space when attacking. They won’t be double marking Lawrence as we have other players (Sibley and RW) to worry about too. A fit and firing Marriott will be a nuisance and just as reliable as Martin for finding the back of the net. Marriott’s movement, dragging their CBs all over the place, should create more space for the likes of Lawrence and Sibley.
Just one change and we’re a lot more formidable in attack.

Get Clarke (or similar) in to partner Te Wierik, who is hopefully a more complete defender than Wisdom, Davies or Clarke, and we should be more solid. Cut the silly mistakes out lic of which we must be near the worst in the league, and I can’t see why we won’t be challenging for top 2, certainly top 6. After all, we aren’t too far off top 6 with this squad. With another years experience under their belt you’d expect this young squad to improve without changes

[Day]

35 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

A fit and firing Marriott will be a nuisance and just as reliable as Martin for finding the back of the net. Marriott’s movement, dragging their CBs all over the place, should create more space for the likes of Lawrence and Sibley.

Made me a little giddy reading this ?

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

2 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I don’t think we’re far off. A new player at RW would make us a lot more varied in attack, giving the rest of the team more space as well. Bogle won’t be as exposed at their LB will be conscious of us on the counter, and gives Bogle more space when attacking. They won’t be double marking Lawrence as we have other players (Sibley and RW) to worry about too. A fit and firing Marriott will be a nuisance and just as reliable as Martin for finding the back of the net. Marriott’s movement, dragging their CBs all over the place, should create more space for the likes of Lawrence and Sibley.
Just one change and we’re a lot more formidable in attack.

Get Clarke (or similar) in to partner Te Wierik, who is hopefully a more complete defender than Wisdom, Davies or Clarke, and we should be more solid. Cut the silly mistakes out lic of which we must be near the worst in the league, and I can’t see why we won’t be challenging for top 2, certainly top 6. After all, we aren’t too far off top 6 with this squad. With another years experience under their belt you’d expect this young squad to improve without changes

Marriott will be nowhere near Martin for assists,so whilst he may (and this is an unknown quantity,as he hasn't been prolific for us) score goals,I suspect The rest of the team would be far less well supplied.

Marriott will suit somebody's team,but not one of Cocus unfortunately.