Relegation battle

[minesahartington]

38 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

Well this thread keeps going round in circles. Sure Cocu was hamstrung by Lampard and Chelsea, and we have been hit hard by injuries, and although Cocu's almost complete lack of ability to get the best out of the players available has been mentioned a few times, we simply move on past it and no-one seems to want to run with it. Sadly, much of the thread is people having a go at eachother.

Everyone could see the type of football Cocu wanted to use very early on, and we all knew that we didn't have the personnel to do that. But he insisted on carrying on with it. And in some matches, you could see the opposition lining up licking their lips to high-press our defence into mistakes - Forest away in the EFL being a key example. Eventually Bogle was given the ball via an awful pass which put him unde immediate pressure. The obvious way out was to simploy hoof the ball either upfield or into the stands. Either would hand the ball to the opposition without a fight, but the poor lad was under so much pressure to play his way out that he mishit his pass and Grabban couldn't miss. That pressure on Bogle messed with his head and he hasn't been the same player since. Yes, he made the mistake that led to the goal, but the blame was in the first instance with Roos who played him into trouble, but it really lies with Cocu for insisting on playing the ball out from the back at every opportunity, evn though several teams had made it obvious that our defenders were being turned into sitting ducks almost every time.

Even so. Cocu has barely moved away from the ethic. It might be the way to go, but only when we can go there. But in addition to all that, we have what i refer to as "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy" (John le Carre, if  I recall). So:

Tinker: despite stubbornly refusing to change the "play out from the back" mentality, Cocu has insisted on changing just about everything else about the team - I am surprised we haven't changed from black and white kit for our home matches. This is all with the aim of countering the way the opposition set up to play. As some have said, we end up sending the team out onto the pitch wondering if they have turned up at the right stadium, because they are having to try and handle yet another formation, yet another way of playing (once we have played out from the back), and consequently simply can't get used to what they are supposed to be doing, or where their team mates are likely to be.

Tailor: this is pretty much the same as the last one, trying to tailor our team to the opposition. STUFF THE OPPOSITION!!!!!Set the team up to our strengths and force the opposition to worry about us, while we play to a way that we are used to, where the players know what they are supposed to do, and what their team mates are going to be doing.

Soldier: Yes. Now we are talking. Soldiers do know what they are supposed to be doing, and they will give their absolute all for the cause and for their colleagues. Ooooohhh we could do with a bit of that at Derby County. Much as Cocu isn't getting the best out of the players, too many of them are holding things back and not giving their all. It isn't all Cocu's fault by any stretch of the imagination.

Spy: Naahhhh! Don't want any of that. Leave that with Bielsa!

But the major issue is that week after week after week after week we are seeing no visible improvement. And when we do think we have seen a flicker of hope, Cocu steps in and snuffs it out before any flames can take hold - vis a vis the sudden improvement against Preston, and the next couple of games. 2 up top, which we have been crying out for all season, a diamond formation (for just one game, I believe) then back to one up top. But not with a proper target man for much of the time. Marriott, when he has started, has been put there, but he is not a target man. He is best running onto a ball put round the back of the defence - which we only seemed to do with Chris Martin as the lonely striker, even though running the channels isn't his strength. But much of Martin's time is spent battling with 3 defenders - and he does try to carry out the press, but on his own it is pretty pointless. And he is isolated because the midfield is sitting too deep, courtesy of wanting to play with two defensive mids, especially at home. Why?

And then, as a bit of a sop for the next match, Cocu gets us attacking quickly, playing long, and/or high pressing, and we actually look good for 10 - 20 minutes, but usually in a bid to rescue the game. How many times have we heard people say "if only we could start the match the way we end it"? Or even thought it ourselves?

I hav e no idea if there is a solution just around the corner, or just around the New Year. Thankfully for me I had written the season off before it even got going because of the bout of Frankitis which swept though the club, so apart form being concerned by just how low we have stooped. I still am only expecting a mid-table finish at best. But what I do want is some visible, tangible form of evidence that we are making progress, and for the players to leave everything on the pitch every match.

Spot on. Cocu is responsible for encouraging Roos to think he can play football with his feet. He can’t, he needs 3 touches to steady himself and therefore panics cocks it up passes go astray or put players under pressure etc etc  did it to Bogle and the rest is history. 

This we are playing weaker teams nonsense.. we are the weaker team. Not sure we have the fight or the leadership unfortunately 

[S8TY]

17 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

 have said that Cocu isn't the only one responsible for our current plight. But his insistence on playing out from the back is the cause - as I pointed out, most teams have simply played the high press as soon as our keeper has the ball. And inevitably he would roll the bll out to a defender who would already have two players charging towards him. So the ball goes back to the keep er, or sideways, and sideways again, and eventually back to the keeper who kicks it long, where it probably should have gone already. Forest did it all match, but for the goal, it was a very poor pass from Roos to a player already under pressure, and the ball wasn't even to feet. So yes, Bogle did make the mistake, but it was because our methodology was well known, and was known to not change, and was easy to counter. And rather than just stifle the play out, Forest did it with the aim of forcing a mistake. If we had other options for getting play going, it wouldn't have been so easy for Bogle to be put under pressure. Yes it was his mistake, but the absolute dogmatic, pig-headed insistence on the style of play meant that it was an accident waiting to happen. So yes, Cocu must shoulder some of the blame.

Hi Dave

I do agree that we have got caught playing out from the back and you make some very valid points but the incident with Bogle was definitely his fault...Roos played his part don't get me wrong and yes the clearance/pass wasn't great but Bogles bodyshape and reaction were poor lets get it right....last season he scooped one up in the air at the city ground which cost us a goal and IMO Bogle is not a great defender..yet!.....have a look at Villa's first goal at wembley and Charltons first this season and you'll see what i mean...I'm not trying to villify the lad I want him to be a great player but you don't get better unless you recognise your errors and for me Bogle has a long way to go to convince me but as i said thats my opinion....

Individual errors from players who appear to not be able to pass to someone 5 yards away are also as frustrating as hell and we seem capable of this far too often this season....this though is NOT Cocu's fault , people can criticise his formations or team selections but no manager can account for individual bad play/mistakes so to me that is unfair to blame Cocu for that...these men are professional footballers and if the can't control a ball or be able to try and receive the ball with a correct body shape that is not Cocu's fault...has he got to go back to basics on the training ground and coach players to receive the ball with the correct foot etc??? This should be ingrained from youth/academy coaches.

Everyone makes errors and we seem to be making quite a few but please don't put that onto our manager...he must wonder just what the hell he's got himself into .....he's not blameless as you point out and hopefully with a few additions and Rooney we will get better...I think Rooney will give everyone a big lift ....

[GrimsbyRam]

18 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

Apart from Clarke and Shinnie, who exactly are we missing and down to our bare bones? 

If you see most of my posts, I am not a Cocu fan but surely you have to accept that we have a thread bare squad, in terms of numbers, compared to other seasons.  Previously, I have always worried that we did not have enough cover up front but ironically (despite the lack of goals) it is the other areas that are more concerning.  

In defence, we lost Pearce, Ambrose, Keogh, Cole, Olson. I do not count Tomori and he has been replaced by Clarke.  I would say that Pearce, Cole and even Ambrose would have started whilst here.

In midfield, we lost Johnson, Bryson, Butterfield, Thorne (temporarily) and Luke Thomas.  Similar to Tomori, Mount and Wilson replaced by Dowell and Paterson.  I am disregarding McCallister as he was not tried.  I would say Johnson, Bryson and Thomas would have all featured heavily.  Even Thorne may have been given a go.

Up front, we lost Nugent and Blackman (you may laugh but he may have been given a clean slate just as Anya was).

Therefore, in terms of numbers we have lost 10 players (including Keogh) permanently. We have only brought 2 in.

 

 

[RoyMac5]

11 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

Apart from Clarke and Shinnie, who exactly are we missing and down to our bare bones? 

Paterson? He's gone missing. Dowell same.

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, GrimsbyRam said:

Therefore, in terms of numbers we have lost 10 players (including Keogh) permanently.

But everyone went on about the squad being to big and blocking youth?

[May Contain Nuts]

17 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

Apart from Clarke and Shinnie, who exactly are we missing and down to our bare bones? 

Apart from them? You say that as if they make no difference to the balance or quality of the team!

With Clarke & Shinnie available we can play the diamond that people crave (just as long as Marriott is fit enough to play 90 minutes every week), without them our midfield and defence is piss weak and we can't play it.

In terms of the players who started the season?

Keogh (captain, best defender, best ball playing defender), Huddlestone (not good enough for a promotion push but better than anyone available at present for a midfield who like to control /pass the ball, also decent enough as a counter attacking option as seen under Rowett). Even Mason Bennett is a miss and he's poo! (Remove the option of including him altogether and we're weaker). Marriott is injured more ofthen than he's not, Bielik has had injury problems....

In terms of players lost since last season when we just about scraped into the playoffs? I don't even need to type anything else on that subject.

[GrimsbyRam]

3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

But everyone went on about the squad being to big and blocking youth?

I am not saying youth shouldn't be given a chance. To lose 8 players net was too much for the squad when we have only added Sibley and Knight in terms of numbers (Lowe was here anyway). But even before the season it was obvious we needed a '4th' centre back for the squad, two wingers (Thomas would have stayed for me) and at least two midfielders.

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, GrimsbyRam said:

I am not saying youth shouldn't be given a chance. To lose 8 players net was too much for the squad when we have only added Sibley and Knight in terms of numbers (Lowe was here anyway). But even before the season it was obvious we needed a '4th' centre back for the squad, two wingers (Thomas would have stayed for me) and at least two midfielders.

Perhaps we spent all the money on Beilek?

[GrimsbyRam]

Just now, RoyMac5 said:

Perhaps we spent all the money on Beilek?

Maybe although I would hope that is structured to be paid over 4 or so years!  I also think Rooney money would have been better spent elsewhere.

[RoyMac5]

Just now, GrimsbyRam said:

Maybe although I would hope that is structured to be paid over 4 or so years!  I also think Rooney money would have been better spent elsewhere.

I think there was no 'Rooney money', I think that was all covered by increased sponsorship.

[Gone]

16 minutes ago, GrimsbyRam said:

If you see most of my posts, I am not a Cocu fan but surely you have to accept that we have a thread bare squad, in terms of numbers, compared to other seasons.  Previously, I have always worried that we did not have enough cover up front but ironically (despite the lack of goals) it is the other areas that are more concerning.  

In defence, we lost Pearce, Ambrose, Keogh, Cole, Olson. I do not count Tomori and he has been replaced by Clarke.  I would say that Pearce, Cole and even Ambrose would have started whilst here.

In midfield, we lost Johnson, Bryson, Butterfield, Thorne (temporarily) and Luke Thomas.  Similar to Tomori, Mount and Wilson replaced by Dowell and Paterson.  I am disregarding McCallister as he was not tried.  I would say Johnson, Bryson and Thomas would have all featured heavily.  Even Thorne may have been given a go.

Up front, we lost Nugent and Blackman (you may laugh but he may have been given a clean slate just as Anya was).

Therefore, in terms of numbers we have lost 10 players (including Keogh) permanently. We have only brought 2 in.

 

 

Other than Keogh we knew all this in the summer. We can’t whine about it now, as a manager Cocu should of been more aggressive and hastily in the market back when he joined. However for me the blame for where we are now lies firmly at Lampards door for pissing us about. 

[GrimsbyRam]

8 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I think there was no 'Rooney money', I think that was all covered by increased sponsorship.

I understood that to be a certain proportion and then 50% shielded from FFP (but us still having to pay) from him being a 'coach'. 

[S8TY]

9 minutes ago, GrimsbyRam said:

Maybe although I would hope that is structured to be paid over 4 or so years!  I also think Rooney money would have been better spent elsewhere.

but aren't you excited that Wayne Rooney is going to pull on a Derby County shirt ?? I still can't beleive it and its amazing...its not worth worrying about the money side of things as no one knows the circumstances so  trust the club and enjoy 

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, GrimsbyRam said:

I understood that to be a certain proportion and then 50% shielded from FFP (but us still having to pay) from him being a 'coach'. 

Dunno, where'd you hear that? I think now you say that we're paying his 'coaching wages' but the rest?

[GrimsbyRam]

Just now, TexasRam said:

Other than Keogh we knew all this in the summer. We can’t whine about it now, as a manager Cocu should of been more aggressive and hastily in the market back when he joined. However for me the blame for where we are now lies firmly at Lampards door for pissing us about. 

I am not whining about it at all.  Cocu had a month in place to sort out what he needed.  It was obvious since end of May that Lampard was going so they should have been pursuing options in the market.

[GrimsbyRam]

Just now, S8TY said:

but aren't you excited that Wayne Rooney is going to pull on a Derby County shirt ?? I still can't beleive it and its amazing...its not worth worrying about the money side of things as no one knows the circumstances so  trust the club and enjoy 

Yes and no (personally I would rather had the next Mason Mount for a year).

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, GrimsbyRam said:

Yes and no (personally I would rather had the next Mason Mount for a year).

I wouldn't. Rooney is OURS, Mason or whoever is just on loan. Rooney is committed to US. #COYR

[GrimsbyRam]

5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I wouldn't. Rooney is OURS, Mason or whoever is just on loan. Rooney is committed to US. #COYR

Until we get relegated (unless he becomes the boss and then gets sacked this time next year)......this is JOKE everybody ?

[AdamRam]

17 minutes ago, GrimsbyRam said:

I understood that to be a certain proportion and then 50% shielded from FFP (but us still having to pay) from him being a 'coach'. 

Think you'll find that doesn't apply in this league - FFP part.

[Raich Carter]

As ever, loads of valid points but some made a bit unfairly / exaggerated and without enough recognition of the on and off the field problems. 
 

A bit of balance, in terms of emotions and judgement, is needed. It’s neither as bad or as positive as many are saying. 
 

The balanced view, I think, is that we need to give him a bit more time (transfer window(s), a bit more tolerance and see where it goes. He clearly wants to do (and/is briefed to do) more than just develop the first 11 and in the long term, that’s a good thing (Southampton etc). Going down is unlikely I think but wouldn’t be disastrous anyway. We’ll still get 22k+ attendances and likely to be a winning side so whilst we’ll lose TV money, it might not be the worst thing ever (forced to play youth, get more hungry players, etc) in terms of us fans following the club. 

Also, we won’t going up this season anyway so let the guy have his time and weigh it all up at the end of the season.

All opinions are valid but I’m not a fan of over-exaggerating ‘facts’ to support an opinion. Bielik wasn’t £10m, we HAVE had a disastrous injury record, his time in Turkey was doomed from the start, Joinersgate was a massive distraction, etc - for me, none of those things are related to him being a good or bad manager. 
 

Cards on the table - I struggle to understand some of the selections and formations but I haven’t won 3 league titles as a manager nor won pretty much every competition worth winning as a professional footballer so what do I know... just saying.