MackworthRamIsGod Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 I admire what Cocu is trying to do, he had a tried and trusted method at PSV and deservedly won many trophies. He is clearly trying to replicate that here, the only problem is, at PSV he had much better players. Memphis Depay was coming through from the academy, for example. This group of players at Derby clearly arent geared up to play defensive football, sitting back hoping to hit the opposition on the break. We have players like Waghorn and Marriott, both absolute beasts in front of goal when played correctly. Bogle at RB! Who on his day can boss the right hand side. Bielek also looks to me like he could be the George Thorne type player we have been lacking to connect an attacking midfield and attacking front 3. It is time for Cocu to switch Bogle back to RB, stop playing 2 holding midfielders and start telling his players to take it to the opposition. I think it was a player for Charlton that said we were the easiest opposition that they had come up against and was surprised we literally offered nothing. Our u18's and u23's continuously hammer teams by playing damn good football, that shouldn't stop at the first team. We are trying to integrate youth into our team, but I honestly cant see how the likes of Sibley, Hector-Ingramn, JML can become a success with the way we are setting up. So, very long story short, on Wednesday I would like him to go back to basics. Bogle in his clearly preffered position, 1 defensive midfielder, Knight playing instead of Dowell and a front lineup that includes at least 2 of Waghorn/Martin/Marriott. If Whittaker isn't starting I want to see him getting at least 20 minutes to really show what he can do. Sibley needs to be on the bench, he can be a game changer. I would even give Hector-Ingram a call up to the bench as a reward for his fantastic form. Ditch Paterson, ditch Dowell and ditch the negativity. Then in the summer, tell the recruitment team to take the summer off and sign the players you think will work in the style you are trying implement. Simple really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jram Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 I admire your optimism but it surely isnt this simple... I remember Lampard playing one holding midfielder away from home last season and we were crying out for two I think we’ve been unlucky this season and that will swing as ever and we’ll progress to our mean and possibly have a more exciting end to the season where we push for playoffs.. I’m not usually interested in attaching too many narratives to the randomness of football but we lost 30 goals in mount and Wilson and we have one fit 34 year old CB which may be affecting our form compared to last season I’d keep the faith with what he is doing and things might look very different if we have 6 more points next Sunday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretDave Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 I totally agree. I'd go with the diamond: Hamer Bogle Davies Forsyth Malone Bielek Knight Holmes Lawrence Marriott Martin Subs: Roos, Wisdom, Lowe, Evans, Sibley, Waghorn, Whittaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IslandExile Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 I'm very much in the Cocu in crowd and have tried to defend his selections. However, I wholeheartedly agree with you @MackworthRamIsGod. @angieram made a similar point - that it's fair enough experimenting this season, given the circumstances that Cocu has inherited - but why can't these experiments include more attacking options and make more use of the in-form youngsters. COYR ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Durden Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Careful. You'll get slagged for repeating the same information which is obvious to all of the posters on here and becoming boring and tedious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwram1973 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 When Cocu came in, and in recent interviews, we have been told that from the bottom up we will play a certain way. The formations, Philosophy and tactics will be the same all the way through the academy so that when a young player is ready/good enough he can slot straight into the first team. Now, the under 18's are doing well with the philosophy/system/tactics the 23's are doing well with the philosophy/system/tactics The first team!!!... For me this says a lot and now I think Cocu feel pressured into changing things just to try and get a result because he has realised that the current crop of 1st team players he has are not up to it, bar a few and imo Beilik, bogle and Lawrence. The rest have shown they cannot cut it and need to be replaced. This isn't going to happen over night and I think once he's had the jan window I think we'll see quite an improvement in the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 8 hours ago, mwram1973 said: When Cocu came in, and in recent interviews, we have been told that from the bottom up we will play a certain way. The formations, Philosophy and tactics will be the same all the way through the academy so that when a young player is ready/good enough he can slot straight into the first team. Now, the under 18's are doing well with the philosophy/system/tactics the 23's are doing well with the philosophy/system/tactics The first team!!!... Do you think the U18s and U23s play 'the Cocu Way' then?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamRam Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Simple until it doesn’t work and then the knives are out again. Big jump up from U23s to first team, it’s easier to do in a winning team, integrating them into the team with the negativity around the team at the moment is a big gamble. Don’t buy this ballocks about experimenting, may be a select few that accept that but the majority including Mel won’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwram1973 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 20 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Do you think the U18s and U23s play 'the Cocu Way' then?! I believe so, He and Mel have said it from day one that they want to play a certain way so that the youngsters will eventually be able to slot into the first team. I believe the u18 & u23 coaches have talked about this in interviews also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, mwram1973 said: I believe so, He and Mel have said it from day one that they want to play a certain way so that the youngsters will eventually be able to slot into the first team. I believe the u18 & u23 coaches have talked about this in interviews also. Having watched both I would never have guessed they play the same way as Cocu has the first team set up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 10 hours ago, MackworthRamIsGod said: I admire what Cocu is trying to do, he had a tried and trusted method at PSV and deservedly won many trophies. He is clearly trying to replicate that here, the only problem is, at PSV he had much better players. Memphis Depay was coming through from the academy, for example. This group of players at Derby clearly arent geared up to play defensive football, sitting back hoping to hit the opposition on the break. We have players like Waghorn and Marriott, both absolute beasts in front of goal when played correctly. Bogle at RB! Who on his day can boss the right hand side. Bielek also looks to me like he could be the George Thorne type player we have been lacking to connect an attacking midfield and attacking front 3. It is time for Cocu to switch Bogle back to RB, stop playing 2 holding midfielders and start telling his players to take it to the opposition. I think it was a player for Charlton that said we were the easiest opposition that they had come up against and was surprised we literally offered nothing. Our u18's and u23's continuously hammer teams by playing damn good football, that shouldn't stop at the first team. We are trying to integrate youth into our team, but I honestly cant see how the likes of Sibley, Hector-Ingramn, JML can become a success with the way we are setting up. So, very long story short, on Wednesday I would like him to go back to basics. Bogle in his clearly preffered position, 1 defensive midfielder, Knight playing instead of Dowell and a front lineup that includes at least 2 of Waghorn/Martin/Marriott. If Whittaker isn't starting I want to see him getting at least 20 minutes to really show what he can do. Sibley needs to be on the bench, he can be a game changer. I would even give Hector-Ingram a call up to the bench as a reward for his fantastic form. Ditch Paterson, ditch Dowell and ditch the negativity. Then in the summer, tell the recruitment team to take the summer off and sign the players you think will work in the style you are trying implement. Simple really. Are you saying that, when he's brought the sort of players in he wants, we should play defensive football and hoping to hit the opposition on the break? It may bring success but is it the type of football you want to watch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwram1973 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Having watched both I would never have guessed they play the same way as Cocu has the first team set up... As I said, I think he's realised that most of the 1st team cannot do it and has got to a stage now where he's trying different things just to get a result, especially away, although he cannot deviate too much from his philosophy and that's where i think most of the players suffer. Imo, I think we have to wait till he gets his own players in and then judge him. Like I said, it isn't going to happen overnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 17 minutes ago, mwram1973 said: As I said, I think he's realised that most of the 1st team cannot do it and has got to a stage now where he's trying different things just to get a result, especially away, although he cannot deviate too much from his philosophy and that's where i think most of the players suffer. Imo, I think we have to wait till he gets his own players in and then judge him. Like I said, it isn't going to happen overnight. Not convinced by what you're suggesting. Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwram1973 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Not convinced by what you're suggesting. Time will tell. That's fine bud, it's only my opinion. I think he will turn the club around eventually but we have to give him time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackworthRamIsGod Posted December 9, 2019 Author Share Posted December 9, 2019 36 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: Are you saying that, when he's brought the sort of players in he wants, we should play defensive football and hoping to hit the opposition on the break? It may bring success but is it the type of football you want to watch? I would never promote not wish to watch defensive football, unfortunately that is what Mel has gone for so we have to hope we can make it work. Only way that would be is if Cocu gets his own players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavesaRam Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 45 minutes ago, mwram1973 said: As I said, I think he's realised that most of the 1st team cannot do it and has got to a stage now where he's trying different things just to get a result, especially away, although he cannot deviate too much from his philosophy and that's where i think most of the players suffer. Imo, I think we have to wait till he gets his own players in and then judge him. Like I said, it isn't going to happen overnight. The flaw in this argument is that he found how to get results, or at least performances from the team, but then slowly did a Tommy Docherty and took it apart until it no longer functioned. The inter-passing in the first half against Preston is what we have been crying out for, but within two games we are back to not being able to make more than one pass in a row. Surely having found something that works we shouls stick with it and get some points in the bag, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwram1973 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 18 minutes ago, DavesaRam said: The flaw in this argument is that he found how to get results, or at least performances from the team, but then slowly did a Tommy Docherty and took it apart until it no longer functioned. The inter-passing in the first half against Preston is what we have been crying out for, but within two games we are back to not being able to make more than one pass in a row. Surely having found something that works we shouls stick with it and get some points in the bag, I'm not sure how he's took it apart tbh, he's not been able to pick a consistent side due to injuries and sackings. Picking 45 min of great football and sticking with it is easier said than done. If it was that easy management would be a doddle. Even man city cannot emulate great performances every game. It's the players who are inconsistent, one min (preston) they look good, then next they look average, the philosophy stays the same and imo most of the players we have are only capable of doing it every now and then. Wait till he can get his own players in, then judge him. I loved Lampard but if it wasn't for the 3 loans we would have been a million miles off the playoffs last season. Give him time and i'm sure he'll get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scarlet Pimpernel Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Weare desperately short of a goal out of nothing. Sometimes that's all it takes to turn a game in your favour. We haven't replaced the missing goals from Wilson and. Mount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyhill60 Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 2 hours ago, mwram1973 said: I'm not sure how he's took it apart tbh, he's not been able to pick a consistent side due to injuries and sackings. Picking 45 min of great football and sticking with it is easier said than done. If it was that easy management would be a doddle. Even man city cannot emulate great performances every game. It's the players who are inconsistent, one min (preston) they look good, then next they look average, the philosophy stays the same and imo most of the players we have are only capable of doing it every now and then. Wait till he can get his own players in, then judge him. I loved Lampard but if it wasn't for the 3 loans we would have been a million miles off the playoffs last season. Give him time and i'm sure he'll get it right. He made umpteen changes not necessitated by injury. The key to the improvement in the games leading up to and including Preston was Martin's ability to hold up the ball and help players like Lawrence to deliver. The last two performances have been dire - neither Marriott or Waghorn can do that job effectively Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram8 Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Neither Marriott or Waghorn can do that job (Chris Martin’s skilful ‘hold up and distribute’ play) AT ALL ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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