Cocu - His achievements thus far?

[S8TY]

13 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

Recent managers that have been employed from July until 18 Nov of that season:

Frank Lampard - Lost our leading goalscorer the season before in Matej Vydra. Used the tools he had available to him to bring in 3 top quality loans (none who were considered Premier League quality at the time). We were 6th place after 17 games, 3 points from the top 2.

Garry Rowett - Sold arguably our 2 best players in Tom Ince and Will Hughes. 7th place after 16 games.

Nigel Pearson - Are you an ostrich? 16th place after 16 games. Same position as we are in this season.

Paul Clement - 5th place after 16 games. 4 points off top of the league. 

I think my main concern is that I don't see what value he's currently bought to the team. What I mean by this is what's going to make him stand out? Is he a great tactician of the game (Bielsa/Pep)? Can he get the best out of average players (Billy Davies - ergh)? Does he utilise his name and contacts to bring in good players (Frank)? 

In my opinion, all he has done so far is:

- Promote a style of play that I don't think we currently have the individual quality to achieve success with. 

- Throw a few kids into the first team without any of them being able to nail a first team slot (Bogle excluded due being ever present the season before under Frank).

- Sign some bang average players on loan. Rooney excluded. Lets hope he's still got something to offer the team; unlike Ashley Cole. Am I right @Paul71? aha.

- Been a nice guy when the lads had a mad sesh. 

I understand that as fans people would like to remain optimistic and that we are in a good place from a managerial perspective. Please don't be under the impression that I'm saying we should sack Cocu. We need to give a manager time. I'd just say that I haven't been all that impressed so far and that I don't believe the off the pitch events should be seen as an excuse for uninspiring performances.

 

 

But its not a dig...LOL...... jeeeeez could see straight through your opening post! 

[europia]

8 hours ago, David said:

Achievements so far? We’re 16 games into his first season in charge, I mean winning the FA or League cup is impossible by November, as is the league unless you live in Nottingham. These are end of season review type questions to chew over in the summer months whilst the cricket is on. Unfair and impossible to expect any manager to have any real ‘achievements’ so early on in their time at the club.

Those points that you make though, wouldn't apply to, say...Nigel Pearson 

[RamNut]

Plenty of mitigating factors but so far I don’t see any clear sense of direction. We aren’t noticeably developing the sprogs. We don’t seem to have settled on a particular formation or a best 11. The style of play is a bit naff. I see a pleasant bloke but not a leader or a man manager.

Maybe it is indeed too early to expect much. I do have a theory that what you get at the outset is generally as good as it gets, but Arthur had a fairly flat first season, so let’s hope there is better to come.

Next summer is the real test. Will he burst into action in the transfer market or will he seem like a by-stander as others pull the strings.

Come on Phillip. Let’s be having yer.

 

 

[IslandExile]

Is this just the millennials' generation wanting instant success?

What??!! 16 games in and we haven't yet qualified for the Champions League?

What??!! Emphasis on the academy but as yet none of the kids are fixtures in the senior England squad?

Heck, I can do better myself on FIFA 19. Come on splash the cash!!!

Seriously....

Some of you might be better supporting Manchester City, Liverpool or whoever is top of the league next.

The rest of us are happy with our lifetime support of the Rams, understand the current circumstances and are truly grateful that we have a manager that is building for a sustainable and successful future even if that may take longer than a couple of weeks ?

COYR ? 

[Sheikh n Bake]

3 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Is this just the millennials' generation wanting instant success?

What??!! 16 games in and we haven't yet qualified for the Champions League?

What??!! Emphasis on the academy but as yet none of the kids are fixtures in the senior England squad?

Heck, I can do better myself on FIFA 19. Come on splash the cash!!!

Seriously....

Some of you might be better supporting Manchester City, Liverpool or whoever is top of the league next.

The rest of us are happy with our lifetime support of the Rams, understand the current circumstances and are truly grateful that we have a manager that is building for a sustainable and successful future even if that may take longer than a couple of weeks ?

COYR ? 

Are you ignoring that we have potentially spent over £10m on one player this summer? Don't talk about sustainable ? Yes, he's young and potentially has some sort of resale value. But even with our relatively decent support, it's not sustainable to splash that sort of cash without Premier League money... unless you know a guy with a few loop holes. 

[IslandExile]

1 minute ago, Nick_Ram said:

Are you ignoring that we have potentially spent over £10m on one player this summer? Don't talk about sustainable ? Yes, he's young and potentially has some sort of resale value. But even with our relatively decent support, it's not sustainable to splash that sort of cash without Premier League money... unless you know a guy with a few loop holes. 

Again... This has been discussed previously at great length. The figure may rise to 10 million but is less than that at the moment, and it is spread over the length of the contract as far as FFP is concerned.

Moreover, Bielik is exactly the sort of player we all agreed was needed at the club and just happened to be available in the short window that Cocu had available to him. Will be a great signing.

Give Cocu time to build the squad, from similar transfers and from academy graduates.

But it is not going to happen overnight.

[Sheikh n Bake]

3 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Again... This has been discussed previously at great length. The figure may rise to 10 million but is less than that at the moment, and it is spread over the length of the contract as far as FFP is concerned.

Moreover, Bielik is exactly the sort of player we all agreed was needed at the club and just happened to be available in the short window that Cocu had available to him. Will be a great signing.

Give Cocu time to build the squad, from similar transfers and from academy graduates.

But it is not going to happen overnight.

I've never claimed it's going to happen overnight. So to claim that I'm a millennial who wants instant success is a bit far fetched. 

All I have claimed so far is that I'm not too sure fans would be so lenient to other managers (traditional Championship managers) who find themselves in the same situation and that he is yet to do anything that makes me think he's moving us forward. 

Also, FFP and sustainability are 2 very different beasts. Don't confuse them both. 

[nottingram]

1 minute ago, Nick_Ram said:

I've never claimed it's going to happen overnight. So to claim that I'm a millennial who wants instant success is a bit far fetched. 

All I have claimed so far is that I'm not too sure fans would be so lenient to other managers (traditional Championship managers) who find themselves in the same situation and that he is yet to do anything that makes me think he's moving us forward. 

Also, FFP and sustainability are 2 very different beasts. Don't confuse them both. 

That’s because I would suspect traditional Championship managers would be hired with a very different, much more short term remit. You wouldn’t hire Warnock, Hughton, Pulis et al to oversee a long term rebuild 

[IslandExile]

3 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

So to claim that I'm a millennial who wants instant success is a bit far fetched. 

"Cocu - His achievements thus far?"

[IslandExile]

5 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

Also, FFP and sustainability are 2 very different beasts. Don't confuse them both. 

I'm not confusing them my friend but you were saying that we couldn't afford Bielik without Premier League money. That's why I mentioned FFP; it will fall within the rules.

What I meant by "sustainable" is that I believe Cocu will get us promoted and then keep us in the Premier League... As opposed to a Warnock instant promotion followed by an immediate relegation the following season.

[Sheikh n Bake]

1 minute ago, nottingram said:

That’s because I would suspect traditional Championship managers would be hired with a very different, much more short term remit. You wouldn’t hire Warnock, Hughton, Pulis et al to oversee a long term rebuild 

Warnock:

With a record like that, why not? 

I'm going to leave this thread for now. I can see a lot of people are well bought into Cocu being a real success here at Derby and aren't taking the criticism well. I just raised the post to highlight that albeit it in a limited time frame (1 transfer window where he had 5 weeks) and just under 20 competitive fixtures I haven't seen anything that makes me think he's as good as we make out. 

 

 

[nottingram]

1 minute ago, Nick_Ram said:

Warnock:

With a record like that, why not? 

I'm going to leave this thread for now. I can see a lot of people are well bought into Cocu being a real success here at Derby and aren't taking the criticism well. I just raised the post to highlight that albeit it in a limited time frame (1 transfer window where he had 5 weeks) and just under 20 competitive fixtures I haven't seen anything that makes me think he's as good as we make out. 

 

 

I think you know full well why not and have now left the thread having got the bites you were looking for. Good work and silly us.

[Sheikh n Bake]

1 minute ago, nottingram said:

I think you know full well why not and have now left the thread having got the bites you were looking for. Good work and silly us.

Looking for bites because I don't agree with you?

Good one. 

 

[RoyMac5]

9 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

I'm going to leave this thread for now. ... just under 20 competitive fixtures I haven't seen anything that makes me think he's as good as we make out. 

? Don't let the door hit your @rse on the way out mate. ?

[IslandExile]

@Nick_Ram have you ever watched any of those Warnock teams? Is that how you want a Derby team to play? Really?

Do you not read the positive reports of the Under 18s and Under 23s?

Do you not take into account the preseason? The loss of the loanees? Keogh and all that went with it? The key injuries to Marriott, Holmes, Huddlestone and others?

As others have asked - I have yet to see your answer - what were you expecting after 16 games?

[Sheikh n Bake]

1 minute ago, IslandExile said:

As others have asked - I have yet to see your answer - what were you expecting after 16 games?

"But in a nutshell, better on pitch performances, inevitably leading to better results and a better league position. Better transfer activity. I think there was some expectation of him utilising his name and experience in the dutch league which never materialised. He probably then relied on information given to him about regarding English loan players which has let him down somewhat."

[IslandExile]

8 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

Warnock:

 

I take it all back.

You are right. I cannot see Cocu ever leading a Derby County side to win the Yorkshire Electricity Cup, no matter how long we give him.

[nottingram]

7 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

Looking for bites because I don't agree with you?

Good one. 

 

Thought you were genuine at first, it’s a reasonable discussion point.

Then you seemed to seriously claim Mel could have hired a 70 odd year old who has been in his last season for about ten years and has never even heard of an academy to undertake a long term rebuild of the club from top to bottom. Again I’ll probably give you too much credit and take you seriously but I think you are seriously struggling to grasp Cocu’s remit.

Good one.

[IslandExile]

I do apologize to @Nick_Ram. I am not meaning to attack you personally nor do I think you are a WUM. Unfortunately, however, I do think your views represent those of a significant number of folks on here, albeit still a minority. I do not think those people give due consideration to the events - from over a number of years - that have got us to this point.

And that is incredibly frustrating.

Indeed, after years of Rowettball, Clement and Pearson, we all needed the shot in the arm, the feel good boost, that Lampard gave us. But that was always going to be a short term, holiday romance.

I have not been as excited about a manager and the future of the club, as I am now, not for a very long time.

Things are going to be great. COYR ?

[Millenniumram]

Very odd title for a thread about Cocus performance thus far. Literally no manager, not even if they’d won every game, would’ve achieved anything 3 months into a job. There simply isn’t anything to win by this point. If we’re judging Cocu by those parameters then the poor bloke may as well hand in his resignation now! In fairness, I think we’ve just about reached the point now where we’ve seen enough games (about 1/3 of a season?) to begin to get a feel for where we’re heading under Cocu, and whether it looks like he’ll be a success. But it’s exactly that that we can discuss, whether he looks like he could be successful here based on his performance so far, because there’s no way he could’ve been successful yet! It’s fair imo to talk about whether we look to be heading in the right direction, and whether Cocus the right man to take us where we want to go, but not based on the parameters in the OP.

FWIW I, and I’d think most others on here, would tend to agree the recruitment has been pretty shocking. But that’s nothing new, it’s been that way for years, and it really isn’t anything to do with Cocu. These days recruitment really is a separate responsibility to managing the team, a role taken on by a separate group of people. Occasionally of course a manager may well choose to bring in a specific player he knows of (like Lampard with Cole), but that’s not the norm. You can’t judge managers in general by the players brought in while they’re in charge. That’s not a fair barometer. If you’re really so inclined you could maybe make an argument for pinning the Dowell deal (which was horrendous) on Cocu as his mate is at Everton, but that’s a stretch imo when we don’t really know the ins and outs of things. Recruitment is certainly not something we can use to judge Cocu imo. To judge the recruitment team yes (and it ain’t a good judgement from me!) but that’s for a different thread entirely. 

In terms of actually assessing how Cocu has done so far, I must admit I’ve not been hugely impressed. You do, however, really have to take into account the mess of a situation that he’s been thrown into. I think therefore that we have to probably lower our expectations a little for this season and “write it off” to some extent. Not as a transition season, but simply because Cocu hasn’t yet been given the tools to get us where we need to be. Note the “to some extent” mind- this means imo I’m not expecting top 6 as I tend to, but I’m still expecting us to compete around the top half and not embarrass ourselves. So far we haven’t really achieved that so I must admit I’m a little bit concerned about where we’re headed under Cocu. It all feels a little bit dull at times. And some performances have been really concerning, like the Brentford game for example. Not so far as for me to be calling for Cocu out, but I’m not 100% sold at the minute I must admit, and he needs to start showing more soon imo to give us some hope for the future.

As a final aside, the idea of managers not having experience of the league making them not suitable doesn’t wash with me. You’re either qualified for the job or you’re not. Cocu most certainly is with his record, far more so in fact than the likes of Rowett or Warnock. We’ve not picked up someone from the Dutch 4th tier here, this is a former Champions league manager! And style of play does matter as well. Not in a football snob type way, but because good football builds long term success. Cocu brings decent football, more than Rowett and Warnock do- though I do wish we’d go a bit more gung ho sometimes in fairness.