Cocu - His achievements thus far?

[Day]

9 hours ago, europia said:

Those points that you make though, wouldn't apply to, say...Nigel Pearson 

No. Nigel Pearson was suspended and left the club for unknown reasons. 

[DRBee]

10 hours ago, Nick_Ram said:

Warnock:

With a record like that, why not? 

I'm going to leave this thread for now. I can see a lot of people are well bought into Cocu being a real success here at Derby and aren't taking the criticism well. I just raised the post to highlight that albeit it in a limited time frame (1 transfer window where he had 5 weeks) and just under 20 competitive fixtures I haven't seen anything that makes me think he's as good as we make out. 

 

 

You misrepresent. Thinking it too early to make a judgement does not equate to 'buying into him' being a real success.

[Bubbles]

12 hours ago, Nick_Ram said:

In my opinion, all he has done so far is:

- Promote a style of play that I don't think we currently have the individual quality to achieve success with. 

- Sign some bang average players on loan. 

These 2 points you have made make me laugh.

 

1. Yes we don't have the individual quality to achieve success with the style of play he wants to play, and that is part of him implementing his philosophy. We have a couple of players who are capable of playing it, and I think the key reason why he is implementing it now, is so when he brings in players of his own choice to suit the system they will find it easier to adapt. 

2. Them players I highly doubt would have been his choice, (well the majority of them).... What it would be is our scouting team have chosen them and to be fair I doubt Cocu had ever heard of them. I don't see how you can blame Cocu for our poor scouting team???

 

From the way you are coming across you seem like one of them people who thinks we are entitled to top 6 every season when the team we have right now is way off. This season is a free hit, get used to it, it's not going to be pretty, it's not going to be successful, but this is where the philosophy starts to get implemented and will set us up for the future.

[Dethorn]

I am split here 

I am usually the kind of guy who says "give a manager time and lets not leap to knee jerk reactions"

And I like the idea of Phillip Cocu and the 'philosphy'

but....

I miss Frank, last season was the most fun I have had in a long time - even my wife got involved. PC does not have that "je ne sais quoi.."

I am realist but I do think we should be aiming for top 6 every year - We should be a top flight side - and top 6 should be a given, aim for continual improvement. Most companies would not be happy at one year going backwards let alone more than that, why should we.

Continual improvement is where the 'sticking with the manager' helps

To paraphrase

I am confused

Yes we have had problems

No he has not set the world alight

But he deserves longer even though (as someone points out) he is currently nearer Nigel Pearson and someway behind FL and the other PC so far.

Stick with him

[angieram]

As it was announced when he became manager that Cocu was appointed on a four year contract to deliver a long term future for our club, than that is the point to judge him, when he has had time to implement that plan, not 20 games into his first season.

I do think criticisms of his transfer activity are particularly harsh given the fact that he'd hardly had chance to assess the existing squad when his first transfer window closed.

['Rambe33]

I really want to give Cocu time just for the sanity of having a manager beyond one season! 

I really don't think we are that far off being a competitive team. Creativity is really lacking so that has to be an area to look at.

I think a centre half, two creative players (one being Rooney) and a direct/tricky winger and we could be a different side altogether. The league this year isn't too strong, we are not out of the running for the playoffs yet. If we can stay within touching distance till Christmas then we can still make a late surge. 

Wishlist for Jan would be someone like a Jordan Ibe and a defender maybe Ben Gibson at Burnley or Mepham/Francis from Bournemouth on loan? 

 

We talked about last summer being a big one to get rid of players but I still think this summer we can finally see a real clearout and Cocu being able to put a proper plan in place. 

 

[Rosythram]

It appears to me that we have the same old merry go round supporter’s saying the same old merry go round things and who hope we’ll go on the same old merry go round journey of sacking a manager because it suits them and their narrow vision.

Hopefully Mel doesn’t subscribe and we will slowly but surely build a team and management which has sustainability and merits being in the top tier of English football.

[S8TY]

19 hours ago, Nick_Ram said:

Warnock:

With a record like that, why not? 

I'm going to leave this thread for now. I can see a lot of people are well bought into Cocu being a real success here at Derby and aren't taking the criticism well. I just raised the post to highlight that albeit it in a limited time frame (1 transfer window where he had 5 weeks) and just under 20 competitive fixtures I haven't seen anything that makes me think he's as good as we make out. 

 

 

But your opening post said it wasn't a dig or criticism and it clearly is ...why not just say that ?

[brady1993]

20 hours ago, Nick_Ram said:

Warnock:

With a record like that, why not? 

I'm going to leave this thread for now. I can see a lot of people are well bought into Cocu being a real success here at Derby and aren't taking the criticism well. I just raised the post to highlight that albeit it in a limited time frame (1 transfer window where he had 5 weeks) and just under 20 competitive fixtures I haven't seen anything that makes me think he's as good as we make out. 

 

 

Well if we are taking past records how does winning the eredevisie 3 times compare ? Because I'd say Cocu has already achieved more than Warnock as a manager.

 

[derbydaz22]

20 hours ago, Nick_Ram said:

Warnock:

With a record like that, why not? 

I'm going to leave this thread for now. I can see a lot of people are well bought into Cocu being a real success here at Derby and aren't taking the criticism well. I just raised the post to highlight that albeit it in a limited time frame (1 transfer window where he had 5 weeks) and just under 20 competitive fixtures I haven't seen anything that makes me think he's as good as we make out. 

 

 

Warnock he’s nearly 70 his teams play horrible football and he’s left Cardiff by mutual consent a few points better off than us. No Thanks

[brady1993]

In terms of the actual question it's waaaaay too early to pass an overall judgement especially given how disrupted the pre season and the season have been. It seems every time we pick up a bit we lose a player to injury, heck we had to play what 6ish games without a recognised right back.

[europia]

14 hours ago, David said:

 

On 18/11/2019 at 14:36, David said:

Achievements so far? We’re 16 games into his first season in charge, I mean winning the FA or League cup is impossible by November, as is the league unless you live in Nottingham. These are end of season review type questions to chew over in the summer months whilst the cricket is on. Unfair and impossible to expect any manager to have any real ‘achievements’ so early on in their time at the club.

14 hours ago, David said:

No. Nigel Pearson was suspended and left the club for unknown reasons. 

My point was;  Many supporters including forum members were passing judgement on Pearson very early on in the season and certainly prior to his dismissal. 

[King Kevin]

10 hours ago, europia said:

My point was;  Many supporters including forum members were passing judgement on Pearson very early on in the season and certainly prior to his dismissal. 

I spent some time with Graham Richards talking about Pearson ,his opinion was the he was exactly the right man to sort the club out . I do believe that for most of his time here it was close season and I think his biggest mistake was not to complete the reshaping of the team before the window closed. I do think that long term we would have turned the corner but other events dictated otherwise.

[RamNut]

Pearson was a mad bugger who couldn’t control his behaviour. He was never going to achieve anything. 

Not surprised that Graham Richards rated him.

Another nutter ?

[brady1993]

17 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

I spent some time with Graham Richards talking about Pearson ,his opinion was the he was exactly the right man to sort the club out . I do believe that for most of his time here it was close season and I think his biggest mistake was not to complete the reshaping of the team before the window closed. I do think that long term we would have turned the corner but other events dictated otherwise.

Pearson was one of the biggest managerial mistakes we've ever made and made a mockery of the reasons why Clement was sacked. 

At every turn he made the wrong decision and what was worse is he was indecisive before making those decisions.

 

[brady1993]

11 hours ago, europia said:

My point was;  Many supporters including forum members were passing judgement on Pearson very early on in the season and certainly prior to his dismissal. 

Whilst you make a point. To my mind Pearson's performance was drastically worse. Pearson had a much better squad, a full pre season and little to no injury problems. He was the complete antithesis of what we want as a manager in terms of attitude towards youth and play style and didn't get close to the results to back it up. I seriously think If he would have stayed we would have been in danger of relegation.

Even if performances don't improve at all (which i think they will) under Cocu the worst I can see us finishing is midtable.

[europia]

13 hours ago, brady1993 said:

Whilst you make a point. To my mind Pearson's performance was drastically worse. Pearson had a much better squad, a full pre season and little to no injury problems. He was the complete antithesis of what we want as a manager in terms of attitude towards youth and play style and didn't get close to the results to back it up. I seriously think If he would have stayed we would have been in danger of relegation.

Even if performances don't improve at all (which i think they will) under Cocu the worst I can see us finishing is midtable.

I wasn't even defending Pearson, I'm fully aware of his failings. I was merely responding to David's suggestion that it's too early in a season to be making any evaluations. Folks will have an opinion, often after only a few games and I guess they are entitled to share on the forum. 

[brady1993]

36 minutes ago, europia said:

I wasn't even defending Pearson, I'm fully aware of his failings. I was merely responding to David's suggestion that it's too early in a season to be making any evaluations. Folks will have an opinion, often after only a few games and I guess they are entitled to share on the forum. 

Oh I got the point you were trying to make, I was just trying to highlight why the opinions of him at the time might have been deserving and the situations aren't entirely comparable. 

[plymouthram]

On 18/11/2019 at 13:11, Nick_Ram said:

Good Afternoon All,

I'll start by saying that I do not intend on this post being a dig at Cocu or his staff. I'm just interested in hearing the opinion of other fans who could well provide me with some much needed optimism regarding our current manager.

He arrived on 5 July, 5 weeks before our first game 1 day short of 6 weeks until the transfer deadline. The following transfers have been sanctioned during his time here at the club:

-Krystian Bielik (Approx £8m), Matt Clarke (Loan), Ben Hamer (Loan), Jamie Paterson (Loan), Kieran Dowell (Loan) and the much awaited of Wayne Rooney to arrive in January. 

I think Bielik has shown some quality, but only in midfield where I believe he offers the most to the team. My personal opinion after 16 games is that without the other signings. we wouldn't be any worse off than where we currently are in the table; which is an assessment of what I think they bring to the team. Is it fair to judge Cocu on these signings? Or were these signings recommended to him by others? Which then begs the question, has Mel Morris then taken a risk by employing someone with minimal Championship experience? Would we give a Garry Rowett type manager (someone with Championship experience) the same slack if he sanctioned the same signings?

I understand that he's dealt with many off the pitch issues, where I think he has conducted himself excellently. He has also lost 3 key players from last season in Mount, Tomori and Wilson. The academy is looking excellent and offers and exciting future, but I don't think Cocu can take any credit for this. However, I've not seen anything on the pitch that would suggest to me that we are going places. Does being a nice guy with a Dutch accent keep you in a job?

Looking for some much needed optimism.

 

 

The answer is time, we won't get relegated, lets build on what Cocu is coaching. I am confident that from January onwards the season will get better for us.

[Ellafella]

On 18/11/2019 at 21:19, Nick_Ram said:

Recent managers that have been employed from July until 18 Nov of that season:

Frank Lampard - Lost our leading goalscorer the season before in Matej Vydra. Used the tools he had available to him to bring in 3 top quality loans (none who were considered Premier League quality at the time). We were 6th place after 17 games, 3 points from the top 2.

Garry Rowett - Sold arguably our 2 best players in Tom Ince and Will Hughes. 7th place after 16 games.

Nigel Pearson - Are you an ostrich? 16th place after 16 games. Same position as we are in this season.

Paul Clement - 5th place after 16 games. 4 points off top of the league. 

I think my main concern is that I don't see what value he's currently bought to the team. What I mean by this is what's going to make him stand out? Is he a great tactician of the game (Bielsa/Pep)? Can he get the best out of average players (Billy Davies - ergh)? Does he utilise his name and contacts to bring in good players (Frank)? 

In my opinion, all he has done so far is:

- Promote a style of play that I don't think we currently have the individual quality to achieve success with. 

- Throw a few kids into the first team without any of them being able to nail a first team slot (Bogle excluded due being ever present the season before under Frank).

- Sign some bang average players on loan. Rooney excluded. Lets hope he's still got something to offer the team; unlike Ashley Cole. Am I right @Paul71? aha.

- Been a nice guy when the lads had a mad sesh. 

I understand that as fans people would like to remain optimistic and that we are in a good place from a managerial perspective. Please don't be under the impression that I'm saying we should sack Cocu. We need to give a manager time. I'd just say that I haven't been all that impressed so far and that I don't believe the off the pitch events should be seen as an excuse for uninspiring performances.

 

 

A superb response @Nick_Ram Sir that is based on evidence and reason. I get that Phillip has a vision that is based on a “Golden Thread” consistency throughout the Club from Under 9 to first team, but, as you say, what is the brand on the pitch? It thus far looks a bit unclear until we reverted to the diamond. Recruitment also seems a weak area. I get that he needs time but I’m yet to be convinced that Phillip has a brand. I like him to bits and want him to succeed but a doubt exists in my mind based on what was served up earlier in the season. Derby County is a big Club and we need a high standard of football.