Sheikh n Bake Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Good Afternoon All, I'll start by saying that I do not intend on this post being a dig at Cocu or his staff. I'm just interested in hearing the opinion of other fans who could well provide me with some much needed optimism regarding our current manager. He arrived on 5 July, 5 weeks before our first game 1 day short of 6 weeks until the transfer deadline. The following transfers have been sanctioned during his time here at the club: -Krystian Bielik (Approx £8m), Matt Clarke (Loan), Ben Hamer (Loan), Jamie Paterson (Loan), Kieran Dowell (Loan) and the much awaited of Wayne Rooney to arrive in January. I think Bielik has shown some quality, but only in midfield where I believe he offers the most to the team. My personal opinion after 16 games is that without the other signings. we wouldn't be any worse off than where we currently are in the table; which is an assessment of what I think they bring to the team. Is it fair to judge Cocu on these signings? Or were these signings recommended to him by others? Which then begs the question, has Mel Morris then taken a risk by employing someone with minimal Championship experience? Would we give a Garry Rowett type manager (someone with Championship experience) the same slack if he sanctioned the same signings? I understand that he's dealt with many off the pitch issues, where I think he has conducted himself excellently. He has also lost 3 key players from last season in Mount, Tomori and Wilson. The academy is looking excellent and offers and exciting future, but I don't think Cocu can take any credit for this. However, I've not seen anything on the pitch that would suggest to me that we are going places. Does being a nice guy with a Dutch accent keep you in a job? Looking for some much needed optimism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimeram Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 I think it's all a bit boring and feels very flat this season Drunksagate aside of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scarlet Pimpernel Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said: Good Afternoon All, I'll start by saying that I do not intend on this post being a dig at Cocu or his staff. I'm just interested in hearing the opinion of other fans who could well provide me with some much needed optimism regarding our current manager. He arrived on 5 July, 5 weeks before our first game 1 day short of 6 weeks until the transfer deadline. The following transfers have been sanctioned during his time here at the club: -Krystian Bielik (Approx £8m), Matt Clarke (Loan), Ben Hamer (Loan), Jamie Paterson (Loan), Kieran Dowell (Loan) and the much awaited of Wayne Rooney to arrive in January. I think Bielik has shown some quality, but only in midfield where I believe he offers the most to the team. My personal opinion after 16 games is that without the other signings. we wouldn't be any worse off than where we currently are in the table; which is an assessment of what I think they bring to the team. Is it fair to judge Cocu on these signings? Or were these signings recommended to him by others? Which then begs the question, has Mel Morris then taken a risk by employing someone with minimal Championship experience? Would we give a Garry Rowett type manager (someone with Championship experience) the same slack if he sanctioned the same signings? I understand that he's dealt with many off the pitch issues, where I think he has conducted himself excellently. He has also lost 3 key players from last season in Mount, Tomori and Wilson. The academy is looking excellent and offers and exciting future, but I don't think Cocu can take any credit for this. However, I've not seen anything on the pitch that would suggest to me that we are going places. Does being a nice guy with a Dutch accent keep you in a job? Looking for some much needed optimism. Just one point..... Being a world class player as well as a successful coach/manager keeps you in a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1977 Ram Raider Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 It all boils down to Mel and his axe swinging. Hopefully he will give cocu at least the full season and assess the situation at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IslandExile Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Is this the start of another campaign to appoint Warnock? Sheesh. Cocu is here for the long term. He had a short preseason that prevented him from making wholesale changes to a mixed bag of a first team squad, assembled by many different managers over many years. The focus is on preparing academy players for the step up. Wassall has praised Cocu's involvement in helping the kids to progress. Lampard's "success" was very short term - a lot of cracks were covered up by the three outstanding loanees dragging us into the play-offs. Do we really have to re-hash this story every few days for those too impatient to look at the bigger picture? COYR ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbles Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 I've repeated myself a fair few times, but last season does not resemble where our team is. We have lost the backbone of all of our good results (Tomori, Mount, Wilson) We have replaced them with players nowhere near that standard. Where we are is an accurate representation of the squad we have. Anyone calling for Cocu out, after everything thats happened off the pitch this season needs to give their heads a wobble. What he has done, to answer the original question, is although he doesn't have any achievements thus far, he has brought abit of stability to the club, he's managed to keep all the players focused and settled even though we have had all the crap with drinksgate He has managed to help Tom Lawrence find form in the No.10 Role He has integrated Chris Martin He has been involved with the youth academy more than any other manager has (Words from Justin Walker) What he has done so far isn't much, he is here to implement a philosophy, one that will take a bit of time to implement, but when its all up and going, we will reap the rewards. Sure, we aren't playing the most beautiful football, but we don't have the creativity in the midfield, we don't have the ball playing defenders to do so. When we get the right personnel in we will see change, we will see what Cocu was brought in to do. And them reasons alone is why I will stay optimistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackworthRamIsGod Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Maybe ask this in another way, given what Philip Cocu has had to endure this season, do we think he had done well, all things considered. Let's list a few of the things he has had to deal with.... 1. A late introduction to the team, missing a few days of pre-season. 2. A poorly organised pre-season trip to America playing equivalent of pub sides and Bristol City? 3. Not having a say in transfers due to arriving late. 4. Mason Mount, Tomori and Wilson being removed from the team being replaced by Dowell, Clarke and Paterson. 5. Waghorn clearly having issues, missing 2 penalties and also a good 1 on 1 at Stoke, an extra 6 points lost, which would place us 7th currently. 6. Lawrence and Bennett crashing. 7. Keogh snapping his leg and ending his Derby career. 8. Huddlestone getting a long term injury. 9. Clarke now seemingly injured. 10. Arguably the best Championship keeper in Carson being sent on loan to Man City!! And not replacing him adequately. 11. The countless off field distractions, Wayne Rooney, stadium sale, investment stories. I would say, given everything this poor man has had to deal with since arriving at our comically cursed club, he is working wonders ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Achievements so far? We’re 16 games into his first season in charge, I mean winning the FA or League cup is impossible by November, as is the league unless you live in Nottingham. These are end of season review type questions to chew over in the summer months whilst the cricket is on. Unfair and impossible to expect any manager to have any real ‘achievements’ so early on in their time at the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmic Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 22 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said: Good Afternoon All, I'll start by saying that I do not intend on this post being a dig at Cocu or his staff. I'm just interested in hearing the opinion of other fans who could well provide me with some much needed optimism regarding our current manager. He arrived on 5 July, 5 weeks before our first game 1 day short of 6 weeks until the transfer deadline. The following transfers have been sanctioned during his time here at the club: -Krystian Bielik (Approx £8m), Matt Clarke (Loan), Ben Hamer (Loan), Jamie Paterson (Loan), Kieran Dowell (Loan) and the much awaited of Wayne Rooney to arrive in January. I think Bielik has shown some quality, but only in midfield where I believe he offers the most to the team. My personal opinion after 16 games is that without the other signings. we wouldn't be any worse off than where we currently are in the table; which is an assessment of what I think they bring to the team. Is it fair to judge Cocu on these signings? Or were these signings recommended to him by others? Which then begs the question, has Mel Morris then taken a risk by employing someone with minimal Championship experience? Would we give a Garry Rowett type manager (someone with Championship experience) the same slack if he sanctioned the same signings? I understand that he's dealt with many off the pitch issues, where I think he has conducted himself excellently. He has also lost 3 key players from last season in Mount, Tomori and Wilson. The academy is looking excellent and offers and exciting future, but I don't think Cocu can take any credit for this. However, I've not seen anything on the pitch that would suggest to me that we are going places. Does being a nice guy with a Dutch accent keep you in a job? Looking for some much needed optimism. You're asking us to discuss Cocu's achievements so far, but the majority of your post is focused on signings. Is that your measure of a good manager? You allow a one-line thought on the game itself ("I've not seen anything on the pitch that would suggest to me that we are going places."), and for this I'd have to disagree with you entirely. Yes we've not been pulling up trees, but there are certainly some green shoots. You can absolutely see the philosophy Cocu is trying to instil into the team. We have our failings, it has been drab at times, but we're looking more and more coherent as confidence grows. I mentioned the other week how recently I've seen us being far more creative in the final third than in games under Lampard. A lot of toothless performances last season were papered over with a moment of individual brilliance from one of our loanees. Under Cocu, we're starting to create a variety of different chances. Lots of movement off the ball but just lacking that final bit of quality. It just needs a little polish. As I said, a bit of confidence will do this team wonders. Personally I'm willing to give Cocu a free hit this season, and judge him after he's had a chance to do his thing. It's not "his" club yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrisoner Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireRam Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 I despair about some Derby fans' lack of perspective at times. Did anyone expect us to be playing like Barcelona at this point? If you did, you're simply naive. Cocu has a completely different set of tactical ideals to Lampard, along with a different coaching style. Arguably the only similarity is the general 433 shape. Lampard preferred structural rigidity, Cocu wants rotation, short passing preferred to long, completely different midfield set-up, along with Cocu lacking the dynamism Lampard was gifted with 3 PL-quality playmakers... in short, an entirely new system to be put in place. This will take quite a bit longer than 3 months to achieve... Time needed for transition aside, I think Cocu has already started to make strides in the right direction for us, from a managerial perspective: We were told there would be more focus on youth and blooding academy players; so far he has gifted professional debuts to Jason Knight, Morgan Whittaker, Louie Sibley and Lee Buchanan fulfilling those promises. Bringing Chris Martin in from the cold. Given his illness last season and complete lack of game-time for the club recently, I suspect many managers would have looked to shift his name from the wage bill. It seems symptomatic of his approach (along with the eventual emergence of Shinnie) that hard work earns reward. We've got a fan favourite back (and classy player) thanks to Phil! Throughout the drink driving incident, I thought he maintained a dignified stance and represented the club well in the face of adversity, even in spite of the tabloid media going on their usual witch-hunt (to me, this was especially impressive in a second language) There have been some lacklustre performances so far, but the players have to take their responsibility for under-performing in those games as well-it is a balance between managerial set-up and player execution. The main criticism tends to be: ''Derby lack identity'' and i'd argue this stems from this balance not being observable yet. New player partnerships and a new footballing system will inevitably take time to gel. Given his success at PSV, I trust Cocu as a tactical manager and given his pedigree as a player, captaining a Barcelona side with Ronaldinho in the team, I trust him as a man manager too. I just think we need to give him time to allow things to fall into place, which was never going to happen instantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Durden Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 He's been dealt a bum hand - however has this let him off the hook a bit, what would have been the outcome with Cocu in charge if we still had Tomori, Mount and Wilson and Keogh hadn't got into the car instead of getting a taxi home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevin Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 43 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said: Maybe ask this in another way, given what Philip Cocu has had to endure this season, do we think he had done well, all things considered. Let's list a few of the things he has had to deal with.... 1. A late introduction to the team, missing a few days of pre-season. 2. A poorly organised pre-season trip to America playing equivalent of pub sides and Bristol City? 3. Not having a say in transfers due to arriving late. 4. Mason Mount, Tomori and Wilson being removed from the team being replaced by Dowell, Clarke and Paterson. 5. Waghorn clearly having issues, missing 2 penalties and also a good 1 on 1 at Stoke, an extra 6 points lost, which would place us 7th currently. 6. Lawrence and Bennett crashing. 7. Keogh snapping his leg and ending his Derby career. 8. Huddlestone getting a long term injury. 9. Clarke now seemingly injured. 10. Arguably the best Championship keeper in Carson being sent on loan to Man City!! And not replacing him adequately. 11. The countless off field distractions, Wayne Rooney, stadium sale, investment stories. I would say, given everything this poor man has had to deal with since arriving at our comically cursed club, he is working wonders ? That's absolutely spot on ,can't fault the logic /facts but he doesn't convince me [gut feeling] and I hope I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 53 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said: Krystian Bielik (Approx £8m), Matt Clarke (Loan), Ben Hamer (Loan), Jamie Paterson (Loan), Kieran Dowell (Loan) and the much awaited of Wayne Rooney to arrive in January. Notable that we've only made one permanent signing (two including the pre-signed Shinnie) despite shipping out in volume and many players out of contract at season end 38 minutes ago, Squid said: We have replaced them with players nowhere near that standard. With the strong rumours on investment to be announced in January - Plus the fact that he had next to no time for his own ideas on what the squad needed in the Summer - I would suspect we're likely to see more signings in January - I think the summer was papering cracks The thing we've been missing for seasons is a quality DM - First thing they do is sign one with potential to play for years for us Hamer came in cos we got a loan offer for Carson which would have been difficult to block him on - Carson only has this year left and there's a good chance of a 3rd keeper contract at City coming his way Clarke obviously came in cos we had two recognised CBs to start the season with Then we're short on creative players in the middle and out wide - Hence Paterson and Dowell Anyone who thought we were going to find an equivalent replacement for Chelsea and England's starting (ish) CM easily is naive (not suggesting you are saying that btw) - As much as I love him if we'd re-signed Hughes it would have been a downgrade - We'd have to spend tens of millions on a player of Mount's quality I suspect every player we signed was on the scouting team's shortlist prior to Cocu's arrival - Dowell and Clarke planned (probably) longer term and the other two a little more spur of the moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brammie Steve Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 I don't reckon a young Brian Clough aided by Peter Taylor would do better given the unique challenges thrown at our current manager! Tomori and Mount played for us last season and are now seen as a bedrock of a Chelsea and England resurgence. Sheer stupidity and arrogance has cost us an otherwise dependable captain. A proven quality goalie is still on our books but warming a top team's subs bench! We could go on but I say 'Cheer up Philip, it could be worse.....plenty of time yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosythram Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Cocu was dealt a set of cards that in fairness were certainly not the best, he’s having to play a game of poker that requires skill and persistence. Will he succeed, most certainly, because 99 percent of Derby County supporters understand this and all he needs is a realistic time frame and all will come good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coneheadjohn Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 He comes across as a great guy. Very smartly dressed. He’s recognised that he needs to trim his beard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 as @cheron85 alludes to, there's some shrewd thinking in not committing to long term permanent signings so early. We don't want to end up with another set of Anya, Blackman etc on the books for a few years, but only being in the team for a few weeks. Cocu effectively has a full season to work with what he's inherited, and work out which are worthy of persevering with, and which need shipping out and replacing. Expect some permanent signings in July. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 33 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said: as @cheron85 alludes to, there's some shrewd thinking in not committing to long term permanent signings so early. We don't want to end up with another set of Anya, Blackman etc on the books for a few years, but only being in the team for a few weeks. I think that's exactly it - Notable for me that he flew Anya out to the US and gave him game time to properly analyse every resource we might have - He knew he was coming into it late doors and knew he had a long term re-building job on his hands No rush fellas - Champions League 2025 for my 40th Birthday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie20 Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 I'm happy with Cocu so far apart from one major issue - he desparately needs to find a decent barber. That has to be his priority for the 2nd half of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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