Cocu - His achievements thus far?

[Sheikh n Bake]

I agree that we need to give a manager time i make their mark and the club is desperate for stability.

However, are we sure Phil is the right man to give our time to? We can only wait and see i guess.

My initial views are only raised because as someone else mentioned, is he getting an easy ride because of the off field events? It's easy to say that for obvious reasons his job has been made more difficult by them, by not having Keogh anymore etc.. but actually, has this lowered expectations and given himself a free hit this season even if we finish 20th? 

Having seen Mel say that he thinks we will make top 6, I'm not too sure he'd be happy with a bottom half finish. We will see.

[Bubbles]

8 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

Having seen Mel say that he thinks we will make top 6, I'm not too sure he'd be happy with a bottom half finish. We will see.

Im sure he wont give a toss as-long as his philosophy starts to be implemented. we are not a top 6 team. end of.

[Donnyram]

I’m encouraged by the balanced replies on here - I feared the thread would lead to doom and gloom comments and negativity that some Rams supporters seem to revert to if we’re not flying high. This is a long term project that needs our patience.  

As for Cocu’s achievements - ask again in May 2023.  

[Derbados]

He needs time, simple as that. 
 

let’s see what he can build over time. Yes, we’re not exactly ripping the league to pieces at the minute and the off the field issues have made us look like a club in complete turmoil. 
 

I feel sorry for him in a way, he’s been let down badly by his players and hopefully he can bring in some quality additions aligned to his strategy moving forward. 
 

will he very interesting to see what happens on the investment front, if he has some money to spend come Jan / the summer we could end up doing a Norwich next season, who knows 

as George Thorne once tweeted “patience”

[Anag Ram]

13 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

I agree that we need to give a manager time i make their mark and the club is desperate for stability.

However, are we sure Phil is the right man to give our time to? We can only wait and see i guess.

My initial views are only raised because as someone else mentioned, is he getting an easy ride because of the off field events? It's easy to say that for obvious reasons his job has been made more difficult by them, by not having Keogh anymore etc.. but actually, has this lowered expectations and given himself a free hit this season even if we finish 20th? 

Having seen Mel say that he thinks we will make top 6, I'm not too sure he'd be happy with a bottom half finish. We will see.

Cocu will know how he wants Derby County to play, from the under eights to the first team. 

It will take time to identify which players are technically and mentally able to adapt to such plans. 

This will involve various combinations of players. Bit by bit he will see who he wants and who he doesn't. 

When he gets his squad sorted we will climb the table. Whether or not we get to the top six this season will depend on his ability to work with the current squad, bolstered perhaps by two or three newbies. 

By next season he should be better placed to be judged as a manager because he will have had more chance to mould a team in his image. 

In an ideal world that team would include three or four youth players elevated into the championship. 

 

[desirelines]

Way too early to judge

[Mucker1884]

Firstly, I would say that Cocu has not lost "our best 3 players from last season".  We as fans have.  DCFC as a club have.  But they were not here when he arrived, and were never realistically likely to be, so he would have known the score, with regards to the available playing staff, and would have known he was never likely to have Mount, Tomori and Wilson as options.  So he's "lost" nothing, from what I can see!

As for his achievements thus far, arguably he has achieved very little, but even under "normal circumstances", that wouldn't be too disconcerting, given the fact he's only been here 5 minutes! 
However, having been dealt the cards he has thus far since arriving, much of which would not... and could not... have been foreseen by anyone, be that club staff or fans, I would say he's brought a mature, calming influence, with a huge dollop of class!
I'd argue further that he may well have even saved the public face of our beloved club, as without him, we may have come across as a little bit more scummy, to many more oppo fans, than we currently do!

Hopefully, that's all behind us now, and hopefully, Mr Cocu can now concentrate on doing what he was brought in to do... and hopefully his achievements will be more apparent, come May.

I have to say... I have high hopes.

[Sheikh n Bake]

1 hour ago, Mucker1884 said:

would say he's brought a mature, calming influence, with a huge dollop of class!
I'd argue further that he may well have even saved the public face of our beloved club, as without him, we may have come across as a little bit more scummy, to many more oppo fans, than we currently do!

This argument is something that I don't buy into. Realistically, what else could he have done? DCFC pay his wages... He's not exactly going to stick his neck out on the line and say disagree with Mel is he? He's just got on with the job that he's employed to do. 

3 hours ago, desirelines said:

Way too early to judge

We've played almost 20 games this season including cup fixtures. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not trying to sound like a negative nancy here. I think that it's great that we are giving the manager time. But it could quite easily be argued on the flip side that:

- Whilst his attempted style of play is attractive, he's arguably not getting the best of the players he has available to him. Square pegs round holes. 

- The sanctioned signings under his tenure have been average at best. I don't think we've got it right with Dowell and Paterson. Only Bielik has been a consistent starter after being bed in. Matt Clarke (partially due to injury)  has only made 8 league appearances. We failed to bring in any quality in the wide areas. Which links back to the first point, where we insisted on playing a 4-3-3 for a large period of this season without enough strength in depth on the wing. Results/performances have improved since moving to the diamond. 

- People saying that he's had a short pre-season. 6 weeks is plenty of time if you are 'current' knowledge wise of the Championship to assess the team and identify suitable replacements. I don't blame Cocu for this. This is where Mel has taken the risk of employing Cocu rather than an experienced Championship head. I thought this was the reason that Rosenior was bought in. 

[G STAR RAM]

@Nick_Ram let's flip the question on its head, what were you expecting him to have achieved after 20 games?

Compare it to any other manager that has achieved anything after 20 games.

[Rampage]

Uninspiring so far. Let us see what happens after Xmas.

[Ramarena]

Philip Cocu.......You have been granted the greatest gift of all: the gift of life. Tell me - what have you done to deserve this superlative good fortune?

[MackworthRamIsGod]

5 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

Philip Cocu.......You have been granted the greatest gift of all: the gift of life. Tell me - what have you done to deserve this superlative good fortune?

"Realised Mason Bennett is crap me lord"

[RoyMac5]

36 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

I'm not trying to sound like a negative nancy here. I think that it's great that we are giving the manager time. 

...and yet you are. Do tell what you might have expected from a new manager to have achieved so far?

[Mucker1884]

43 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

This argument is something that I don't buy into. Realistically, what else could he have done? DCFC pay his wages... He's not exactly going to stick his neck out on the line and say disagree with Mel is he? He's just got on with the job that he's employed to do. 

 

My intention was not to point out his actions, but the manner in which he has carried them out! 

As a mere example, can you imagine the likes of Colin (formerly of Cardiff) going about his business in such a calming, assuring, classy manner, after such upheavals and testing episodes under his charge?  

[Sheikh n Bake]

Just now, G STAR RAM said:

@Nick_Ram let's flip the question on its head, what were you expecting him to have achieved after 20 games?

Compare it to any other manager that has achieved anything after 20 games.

Recent managers that have been employed from July until 18 Nov of that season:

Frank Lampard - Lost our leading goalscorer the season before in Matej Vydra. Used the tools he had available to him to bring in 3 top quality loans (none who were considered Premier League quality at the time). We were 6th place after 17 games, 3 points from the top 2.

Garry Rowett - Sold arguably our 2 best players in Tom Ince and Will Hughes. 7th place after 16 games.

Nigel Pearson - Are you an ostrich? 16th place after 16 games. Same position as we are in this season.

Paul Clement - 5th place after 16 games. 4 points off top of the league. 

I think my main concern is that I don't see what value he's currently bought to the team. What I mean by this is what's going to make him stand out? Is he a great tactician of the game (Bielsa/Pep)? Can he get the best out of average players (Billy Davies - ergh)? Does he utilise his name and contacts to bring in good players (Frank)? 

In my opinion, all he has done so far is:

- Promote a style of play that I don't think we currently have the individual quality to achieve success with. 

- Throw a few kids into the first team without any of them being able to nail a first team slot (Bogle excluded due being ever present the season before under Frank).

- Sign some bang average players on loan. Rooney excluded. Lets hope he's still got something to offer the team; unlike Ashley Cole. Am I right @Paul71? aha.

- Been a nice guy when the lads had a mad sesh. 

I understand that as fans people would like to remain optimistic and that we are in a good place from a managerial perspective. Please don't be under the impression that I'm saying we should sack Cocu. We need to give a manager time. I'd just say that I haven't been all that impressed so far and that I don't believe the off the pitch events should be seen as an excuse for uninspiring performances.

 

 

[S8TY]

8 hours ago, Nick_Ram said:

Good Afternoon All,

I'll start by saying that I do not intend on this post being a dig at Cocu or his staff. I'm just interested in hearing the opinion of other fans who could well provide me with some much needed optimism regarding our current manager.

He arrived on 5 July, 5 weeks before our first game 1 day short of 6 weeks until the transfer deadline. The following transfers have been sanctioned during his time here at the club:

-Krystian Bielik (Approx £8m), Matt Clarke (Loan), Ben Hamer (Loan), Jamie Paterson (Loan), Kieran Dowell (Loan) and the much awaited of Wayne Rooney to arrive in January. 

I think Bielik has shown some quality, but only in midfield where I believe he offers the most to the team. My personal opinion after 16 games is that without the other signings. we wouldn't be any worse off than where we currently are in the table; which is an assessment of what I think they bring to the team. Is it fair to judge Cocu on these signings? Or were these signings recommended to him by others? Which then begs the question, has Mel Morris then taken a risk by employing someone with minimal Championship experience? Would we give a Garry Rowett type manager (someone with Championship experience) the same slack if he sanctioned the same signings?

I understand that he's dealt with many off the pitch issues, where I think he has conducted himself excellently. He has also lost 3 key players from last season in Mount, Tomori and Wilson. The academy is looking excellent and offers and exciting future, but I don't think Cocu can take any credit for this. However, I've not seen anything on the pitch that would suggest to me that we are going places. Does being a nice guy with a Dutch accent keep you in a job?

Looking for some much needed optimism.

 

 

You say its not a dig yet ask for reassurance and much needed optimism then mention his lack of championship experience....just give the bloke a chance... to me he's come into a difficult time at our club and has handled himself impeccably in his short time here considering some of the off field antics!....the time to judge him is this time next season as he'd have had 2 more transfer windows and hopefully would've been able to get across his message of how he wants us to play....

[Sheikh n Bake]

20 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

...and yet you are. Do tell what you might have expected from a new manager to have achieved so far?

See above post.

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

Frank Lampard - Lost our leading goalscorer the season before in Matej Vydra. Used the tools he had available to him to bring in 3 top quality loans (none who were considered Premier League quality at the time). We were 6th place after 17 games, 3 points from the top 2.

Garry Rowett - Sold arguably our 2 best players in Tom Ince and Will Hughes. 7th place after 16 games.

Nigel Pearson - Are you an ostrich? 16th place after 16 games. Same position as we are in this season.

Paul Clement - 5th place after 16 games. 4 points off top of the league. 

And yet none of those got us promoted or did I miss it @Nick_Ram?

[G STAR RAM]

4 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

Recent managers that have been employed from July until 18 Nov of that season:

Frank Lampard - Lost our leading goalscorer the season before in Matej Vydra. Used the tools he had available to him to bring in 3 top quality loans (none who were considered Premier League quality at the time). We were 6th place after 17 games, 3 points from the top 2.

Garry Rowett - Sold arguably our 2 best players in Tom Ince and Will Hughes. 7th place after 16 games.

Nigel Pearson - Are you an ostrich? 16th place after 16 games. Same position as we are in this season.

Paul Clement - 5th place after 16 games. 4 points off top of the league. 

I think my main concern is that I don't see what value he's currently bought to the team. What I mean by this is what's going to make him stand out? Is he a great tactician of the game (Bielsa/Pep)? Can he get the best out of average players (Billy Davies - ergh)? Does he utilise his name and contacts to bring in good players (Frank)? 

In my opinion, all he has done so far is:

- Promote a style of play that I don't think we currently have the individual quality to achieve success with. 

- Throw a few kids into the first team without any of them being able to nail a first team slot (Bogle excluded due being ever present the season before under Frank).

- Sign some bang average players on loan. Rooney excluded. Lets hope he's still got something to offer the team; unlike Ashley Cole. Am I right @Paul71? aha.

- Been a nice guy when the lads had a mad sesh. 

I understand that as fans people would like to remain optimistic and that we are in a good place from a managerial perspective. Please don't be under the impression that I'm saying we should sack Cocu. We need to give a manager time. I'd just say that I haven't been all that impressed so far and that I don't believe the off the pitch events should be seen as an excuse for uninspiring performances.

 

 

You still haven't really said what you expect him to have achieved though?

Is it just a higher league position?

 

[Sheikh n Bake]

2 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

You still haven't really said what you expect him to have achieved though?

Is it just a higher league position?

 

I probably used an incorrect word in the title. I should probably have used the term 'Performance'. 

But in a nutshell, better on pitch performances, inevitably leading to better results and a better league position. Better transfer activity. I think there was some expectation of him utilising his name and experience in the dutch league which never materialised. He probably then relied on information given to him about regarding English loan players which has let him down somewhat.