G STAR RAM Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 1 hour ago, bigbadbob said: Which video? Can you link? I believe that @ronnieronalde is referring to the video where Greater Manchester Police march a mob of 200 to 300 muslim youths in balaclavas and scarves across Oldham and stand by as they launch all sorts of projectiles (including rocks and bricks) at a crowd containing familes and children who were attending an MEP candidates political rally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnieronalde Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 Just now, G STAR RAM said: I believe that @ronnieronalde is referring to the video where Greater Manchester Police march a mob of 200 to 300 muslim youths in balaclavas and scarves across Oldham and stand by as they launch all sorts of projectiles (including rocks and bricks) at a crowd containing familes and children who were attending an MEP candidates political rally. Indeed. That's bad and made me straight away think why they weren't stopped. What has frightened me more though is the stories on the google page when you do that search. That's what has got me thinking more than anything else. I don't agree with how he gets his message across and I don't even agree with his message in the first place but what I saw with my own two eyes can't be unseen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said: Indeed. That's bad and made me straight away think why they weren't stopped. What has frightened me more though is the stories on the google page when you do that search. That's what has got me thinking more than anything else. I don't agree with how he gets his message across and I don't even agree with his message in the first place but what I saw with my own two eyes can't be unseen. Are you referring to the way the mainstream media seem to place all of the blame at TRs door? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadbob Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 11 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: I believe that @ronnieronalde is referring to the video where Greater Manchester Police march a mob of 200 to 300 muslim youths in balaclavas and scarves across Oldham and stand by as they launch all sorts of projectiles (including rocks and bricks) at a crowd containing familes and children who were attending an MEP candidates political rally. Cheers fella. Have seen it now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnieronalde Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 6 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: Fair play to you for doing it. There's too many who are just happy to take at face value the stuff they are force fed by the media. I believe there are some deep underlying reasons why the establishment want to shut TR down. If he is inciting racial hatred it would be easy to have him arrested. My position is not really support for TR, more against the establishment. I've done a lot of research and I think people would be surprised if they did the same. The Stacey Dooley return to Luton video was a real eye opener for me. For me as well, but again you know me well enough to know I'm going to try to balance things. That's how I sort stuff out I'm not sure about. I try to see all sides. What was Stacey expecting when she turned up at an extremist rally and then spoke to the most radical muslim leader in the UK? Now, did she go there and talk to him for effect, because it made great but frightening viewing but he simply does not represent the majority of mulsims, he just doesn't and neither did that march. You'd get the same outrageous response if you interviewed someone who is the leader of an ultra fascist far right group. You'd get no sense at all and you'd get him saying all non whites should burn in hell. Idiots are idiots are idiots, it doesn't matter whether it's "their" idiots or "our" idiots. We can't be outraged by one side then turn a blind eye to the other just 'cos it suits our own ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 12 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: #fakenews https://www.ft.com/content/38987fe2-6f19-11e8-92d3-6c13e5c92914 Like many Brexiteers, you choose to believe any unicorn-based story, but when confronted with something that does not fit into your narrative, you bleat "Fake news", which I suppose is the new "Four legs good, two legs bad". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnieronalde Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Are you referring to the way the mainstream media seem to place all of the blame at TRs door? Yes, yes I am. Are you trying to get me to "come out" and say I agree with Tommy overall? Not going to happen. He's delivered his message incredibly poorly, he has incited hatred and no matter how much I think he's getting the rough end of the stick, he's on record and on camera too much and too often causing divide. Condemn the violence 100%, don't try to justify it with well they got violent first. How old were we when we all taught 2 wrongs don't make a right? Offer a solution, find a way to fix it, lead by example but be a good leader. Then I'll listen to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, eddie said: https://www.ft.com/content/38987fe2-6f19-11e8-92d3-6c13e5c92914 Like many Brexiteers, you choose to believe any unicorn-based story, but when confronted with something that does not fit into your narrative, you bleat "Fake news", which I suppose is the new "Four legs good, two legs bad". Sorry can't see the story but I am 100% certain it will not say that Jacob Rees Mogg has moved his business headquarters to Dublin. It may say that a company in which Rees Mogg is a shareholder, and receives remuneration in his capacity as partner, has set up a new fund in Dublin and that this was planned before the Brexit vote. If you cannot see the difference between the two then I would suggest that it is you fabricating stories to fit your narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 8 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said: For me as well, but again you know me well enough to know I'm going to try to balance things. That's how I sort stuff out I'm not sure about. I try to see all sides. What was Stacey expecting when she turned up at an extremist rally and then spoke to the most radical muslim leader in the UK? Agreed, obviously the video was made for effect. But once again, look past the dramatical side of it and just look at what is actually happening, pretty much unopposed, on the streets of England. Frightening. I've had police escorts to matches before and been batoned by police for much much less. Now, did she go there and talk to him for effect, because it made great but frightening viewing but he simply does not represent the majority of mulsims, he just doesn't and neither did that march. I'm always interested to hear how people know what the majority of Muslims think. I've worked with a quite a few and hearing the actual thoughts of one's that I believed were good British Muslim families actually shocked me. You'd get the same outrageous response if you interviewed someone who is the leader of an ultra fascist far right group. You'd get no sense at all and you'd get him saying all non whites should burn in hell. Agreed. The difference being that you would not see an ultra racist far right white group marching through the streets of a Muslim country. Idiots are idiots are idiots, it doesn't matter whether it's "their" idiots or "our" idiots. Agreed. We can't be outraged by one side then turn a blind eye to the other just 'cos it suits our own ideas. 3 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said: Yes, yes I am. Are you trying to get me to "come out" and say I agree with Tommy overall? No. As with most 'politicians' I think it is impossible to come out with some blanket statement that you agree with them overall. As I said in previous posts I cherry pick things that I hear him say and agree with. Not going to happen. He's delivered his message incredibly poorly, he has incited hatred and no matter how much I think he's getting the rough end of the stick, he's on record and on camera too much and too often causing divide. Agreed. He's way too emotional in the way he delivers his message. You can tell he's literally frothing at the mouth. But once you've heard his story it's a bit more understandable. Condemn the violence 100%, don't try to justify it with well they got violent first. How old were we when we all taught 2 wrongs don't make a right? Offer a solution, find a way to fix it, lead by example but be a good leader. Then I'll listen to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnieronalde Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 I don't know how to multi quote you @G STAR RAM, it wouldn't let me do it the other day either, i just get a blank box. I don't disagree with much of that above if any of it. All I would say is on the "how do people know what the majority of muslims think" It doesn't matter what they think as such, there's such a big step between thinking and then joining a group intent on violence. My grandad was Welsh, some of his views would make my eyes water, he didn't let me in his house for a year because my mam married a dark person (changed the ending of his actual words to not offend) Would he ever get up off his arse and join the national front? No. We all like a moan, we all say things to people we're talking to privately that we wouldn't say in public, we all do and anyone who says otherwise is lying. Horrible twisted thoughts aren't great but I guess are kind of ok as long as you never act on them. That's what I mean by he doesn't represent the majority. If he did it would be the majority that were on that march into Oldham and not just 200 radicals shipped in from Halifax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 1 minute ago, ronnieronalde said: I don't know how to multi quote you @G STAR RAM, it wouldn't let me do it the other day either, i just get a blank box. I don't disagree with much of that above if any of it. All I would say is on the "how do people know what the majority of muslims think" It doesn't matter what they think as such, there's such a big step between thinking and then joining a group intent on violence. My grandad was Welsh, some of his views would make my eyes water, he didn't let me in his house for a year because my mam married a dark person (changed the ending of his actual words to not offend) Would he ever get up off his arse and join the national front? No. We all like a moan, we all say things to people we're talking to privately that we wouldn't say in public, we all do and anyone who says otherwise is lying. Horrible twisted thoughts aren't great but I guess are kind of ok as long as you never act on them. That's what I mean by he doesn't represent the majority. If he did it would be the majority that were on that march into Oldham and not just 200 radicals shipped in from Halifax. Really appreciate the debate, it makes a refreshing change to having the usual labels thrown at me. I will never try and change people's minds, we are all grown ups and are capable of thinking for ourselves. I am certainly not afraid of pointing people in the direction of evidence which I believe may make them question what they are saying. I'm pretty sure you are one of the few that has actually taken the time to look at the evIdence and do some research prior to commenting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 3 hours ago, Needless said: Heard a stat from Andrew Neill on the BBC on Tuesday. He said that in the last 2 years, China has manufactured more steel than has been made in the UK in all of history. They are also undercutting global steel producers by government subsidy, effectively dumping steel on the global market. No way can UK steel compete on a global stage or even remain viable without protectionist measures. I can see Chinese production affecting the profitability, but this is about paying a green tax after subsidies from the EU have been removed. Why have the carbon costs continued to be applied but the rebates removed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 1 hour ago, GboroRam said: I can see Chinese production affecting the profitability, but this is about paying a green tax after subsidies from the EU have been removed. Why have the carbon costs continued to be applied but the rebates removed? Probably because the steel industry isn't a bank. If it had been a bank in trouble, the response from the government would have been 'how much do you want? Don't bother to pay it all back until you can afford it.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 29 minutes ago, eddie said: Probably because the steel industry isn't a bank. If it had been a bank in trouble, the response from the government would have been 'how much do you want? Don't bother to pay it all back until you can afford it.' I read (but have not researched) that EU state aid rules prevented the government from bailing British Steel out. Do the EU state aid rules not apply to banks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 17 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: I read (but have not researched) that EU state aid rules prevented the government from bailing British Steel out. Do the EU state aid rules not apply to banks? The EU rules did not directly rule out state aid to the steel industry. All you need to do is cite 'National Security' - and of course we build ships, bombs, aircraft etc, which are made of steel or have steel components. The French steel industry receives state subsidies under the same exemptions/loopholes for a start so that is one avenue possibly worth pursuing, but there is also no reason why it couldn't be brought back under 'temporary' state ownership or even fully-fledged nationalisation (provided that in doing so, a monopoly is not created) - apart from the fact that Tories are allergic to nationalisation. Apart from when it comes to failing train companies, failing banks etc etc. Similarly, industries in 'deprived areas' may similarly receive subsidies. Strangely enough, those subsidies and grants have, historically, come via the EU. The biggest problem with the steel industry is that warning signs were not heeded - indeed, the government encouraged Greybull Capital, a company whose knee-jerk reaction is to asset-strip, to take British Steel under their ownership from Tata a few years ago - for the princely sum of £1 andto this date, they don't appear to have invested a penny more of their own money. All other investment has been by loans at high interest, whereas Tata used to invest heavily in the industry (but still lost money heavily). Perhaps it is time for steel to go the way of coal and using children as chimney sweeps - but major investment is needed now in those same deprived areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 55 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: I read (but have not researched) that EU state aid rules prevented the government from bailing British Steel out. Do the EU state aid rules not apply to banks? Loans are allowed but grants not. The bank bailout was a loan. The steel industry asked for further loans but the government declined. I'm probably not asking my question in a good way. The EU set up some mechanism for fining polluting industries. They also set up a rebate system so national governments could prevent severe impact on industries such as the steel industry. They then decided that, due to Brexit, the rebates would not apply. Why did the fine still apply? I'm sure there's an obvious answer I'm missing but why didn't anyone resist the EU fines on the basis, well, if Brexit means the rebates don't apply, we're not paying the fines either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 Apparently there is a very, very sneaky way that the government could possibly ensure that we crash out with no deal, which I'm pretty sure that about a third of regular contributors to this thread will be absolutely delighted with - it is simply by using the mechanism of parliamentary prorogation. All they have to do is simply resist any push for legislation to prevent leaving the EU without a deal for a while (procrastination - they seem very good at that, and October 31 is still a long way off so what's the rush?) - but then when 'X' day approaches and there is no legislation in place, simply close the parliamentary session (say immediately before the party conferences) and have a recess - albeit a long one - and not bother reconvening parliament until November - i.e. when the clock has run down. It doesn't even need a vote - the Cabinet decides. All they need to do is stuff the cabinet with ERG members. If the Tories elect a hard Brexiteer, would they use this 'nuclear' option? Why am I asking that question? Of course they would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 57 minutes ago, eddie said: Apparently there is a very, very sneaky way that the government could possibly ensure that we crash out with no deal, which I'm pretty sure that about a third of regular contributors to this thread will be absolutely delighted with - it is simply by using the mechanism of parliamentary prorogation. How can you seriously sit there and refer to any sort of Brexit as 'sneaky'??? And what is this 'crash out' you talk of? Do you mean 'leave without a deal'? Think you've been watching the BBC too much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 6 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: How can you seriously sit there and refer to any sort of Brexit as 'sneaky'??? And what is this 'crash out' you talk of? Do you mean 'leave without a deal'? Think you've been watching the BBC too much! I can refer to it as "Totally moronic self-harm verging on insanity brought about by an ill-informed populace in an advisory vote prejudiced by lies spouted by a manipulative group of self-serving merchant bankers and investment brokers hell-bent on creating a money-launderers paradise" if you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRamFan Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 19 hours ago, Needless said: Presented without comment. https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/study-finds-uk-is-second-most-powerful-country-in-the-world/ Looks like it's struggling... https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmdfence/818/81808.htm#_idTextAnchor085 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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