The Politics Thread 2019

[McRamFan]

Labour and the Tories are both eroding, the tories are just doing it a little more publicly.

The election for leader will further damage a lame duck party, and the antisemitism will engulf the Labour party, pretty much at the same time.  I would not be surprised if Corbyn is gone by the brexit deadline as well, a general election called, and someone arrested over the leave campaign.

[SillyBilly]

12 hours ago, Mafiabob said:

The tories will recover quicker than Labour.

Labour are finished under Corbyn, the man needs to step down. Problem is, someone of similar ilk will take over

Tories can win back the shires if they pull themselves together IMO. That is their support base and I think votes are being loaned to show a message. Labour has more of an existential crisis to my mind. They are losing heartlands where once a donkey with a red rossette was guaranteed a seat. They are in process of being wiped off the electoral map in Scotland, their century old irongrip in Wales is looking decidely weak, the usually happy hunting grounds of the Midlands and North East now look like Brexit country...They seem to only being retaining support in highly cosmopolitican areas with high immigration, not going to cut it a GE on that basis.  Spots of red in the big cities of Manchester, Brum, London etc. LD have already stolen the march on being the party of Remain, backtracking by Labour to out-and-out Remain will win some (but not all) of that Remain vote back but probably cost them as much, if not more votes from the 5M Brexiteers who voted Labour and live in traditionally Labour Midlands and Northern seats. Where I live in the SE (outside London), Labour just aren't a force here, its Tory country with the LD as strong opposition, that ain;t going to change. I'd be sat looking at the electoral map in Labour HQ (If I was a Labour strategist) wondering where you can actually move without losing as many votes as you'd gain. Difficult to say.

[FindernRam]

With all our navel gazing over Brexit it is easy to overlook what a divided shambles the EU Parliament has now become. 

No wonder the EU Commission runs the place, and parliament rubber stamps the commission policies.

So the bureaucrats run the show, which is why our Civil Service are so enamoured of the EU; its heaven for them!

Democracy is a dead man walking!

[McRamFan]

55 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

With all our navel gazing over Brexit it is easy to overlook what a divided shambles the EU Parliament has now become. 

No wonder the EU Commission runs the place, and parliament rubber stamps the commission policies.

So the bureaucrats run the show, which is why our Civil Service are so enamoured of the EU; its heaven for them!

Democracy is a dead man walking!

Proof?

[Stive Pesley]

On 26/05/2019 at 17:59, G STAR RAM said:

Had all of his assets frozen for 'mortgage fraud'.

Are you seriously suggesting we feel sorry for someone who pleaded guilty to mortgage fraud and spent 18 months in prison as a result?

Still - the EU election results prove the efficacy of no-platforming fascists.

I know there are a few TR symapthisers on here with their "oh I dont like his views and I agree that his methods are too aggressive, and we shouldn't judge him for his criminal record for mortgage fraud, passport fakery and assault - but it's tewwible that he's had his social media accounts removed" schtick - but the bottom line is that, whatever crumbs of validity his message may have, it's all totally undermined by the fact he is spreading hate, Using hate to try and cause civil unrest against minorities. If you think he should be given a wider platform then you are endorsing the spread of hate and radicalization.

 

[Wolfie]

On 27/05/2019 at 07:28, HantsRam said:

Way i read it over the weekend, Corbyn and his high command are salivating at the thought of a hard Brexiteer being installed by the Tories and trying to push a no deal through. He seems to be calculating that he can then force a no confidence motion in the government and bring abot his long cherished general election.

Must be assuming Farages mob won't be a serious electoral threat in a GE.

But typical that despite all the earnest sounding words, his thinking is basic party politics.....

Agreed and that's why it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that the Labour/Tory withdrawal deal negotiations broke down.

It wasn't in JC's interests to help the Tories out because he's wanting them to implode.

The Tory in-fighting has gone a long way to get us into this mess but JC is just as much to blame. Still trying to sit on the fence even after the disastrous EU election results.

[Van der MoodHoover]

16 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

Agreed and that's why it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that the Labour/Tory withdrawal deal negotiations broke down.

It wasn't in JC's interests to help the Tories out because he's wanting them to implode.

The Tory in-fighting has gone a long way to get us into this mess but JC is just as much to blame. Still trying to sit on the fence even after the disastrous EU election results.

He seems to have misjudged quite badly and triggered an amount of squabbling within the Labour ranks.

I didn't get a leaflet (suburban Hampshire not traditionally fertile Labour territory), but apparently it just had Jeremys mug on it with no words at all on what the Brexit stance was - in an election defined by this single issue that was never going to fly as a strategy.

If Corbyn thinks he can move the debate in a GE onto other topics that are more favourable to him then thats a risk he is taking.

 

Mind you - the next great spectator sport promises to be the Brexit Party tying to agree a manifesto - the thought of Annunziata Rees-Mogg trying to find common cause with Claire Fox sounds absolutely hilarious....?

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, StivePesley said:

Are you seriously suggesting we feel sorry for someone who pleaded guilty to mortgage fraud and spent 18 months in prison as a result?

Still - the EU election results prove the efficacy of no-platforming fascists.

I know there are a few TR symapthisers on here with their "oh I dont like his views and I agree that his methods are too aggressive, and we shouldn't judge him for his criminal record for mortgage fraud, passport fakery and assault - but it's tewwible that he's had his social media accounts removed" schtick - but the bottom line is that, whatever crumbs of validity his message may have, it's all totally undermined by the fact he is spreading hate, Using hate to try and cause civil unrest against minorities. If you think he should be given a wider platform then you are endorsing the spread of hate and radicalization.

No, it's up to individuals to decide if he is being served up the sort of justice that befits the 'crime'. 

Was his sentence comparable to the sentence of the fraudulent politicians?

Where is he spreading hate?

Once again do you apply the same principles to anti semites? Should they also have their platforms removed?

Thought not.

[Anon]

23 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

No, it's up to individuals to decide if he is being served up the sort of justice that befits the 'crime'. 

Was his sentence comparable to the sentence of the fraudulent politicians?

Where is he spreading hate?

Once again do you apply the same principles to anti semites? Should they also have their platforms removed?

Thought not.

No, no no. The anti Semite thing is a media conspiracy to undermine the Labour party, however I still won't countenance any suggestion that similar smear tactics may be used against people I'm ideologically opposed to.

[Stive Pesley]

40 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

No, it's up to individuals to decide if he is being served up the sort of justice that befits the 'crime'.

Man misunderstands the criminal justice system.

41 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Where is he spreading hate?

Not sure - I'll just go and ask the relatives of people killed at Finsbury Park Mosque and the Christchurch Mosque, oh and Jo Cox's husband. You know that all three of these maniacs were radicalized by Tommy Robinson's aggressive outrage tactics?

44 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Once again do you apply the same principles to anti semites? Should they also have their platforms removed?

Yes. Try posting something anti-semitic on Twitter and report back to me what happens. Well known Nation of Islam anti-semite Louis Farrakhan is banned from most of the same social media platforms as TR. What's your point?

For the avoidance of doubt, I agree with private social media platforms aiding the security of the world by de-platforming ALL extremists. That's TR, anti-semites and Islamic extremists. All of them.

[maxjam]

2 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

For the avoidance of doubt, I agree with private social media platforms aiding the security of the world by de-platforming ALL extremists. That's TR, anti-semites and Islamic extremists. All of them.

Social media platforms are biased against right of centre however - plenty of studies out there prove that beyond doubt.

Furthermore, Tommy Robinson, despite his faults has never been jailed for anything racist.  My concern is that when Sarah Champion and now Jess Phillips try to enter the conversation they are also cast as Islamophobic. 

Tommy Robinson has more than likely had a different upbringing to the two female MPs giving him a unique insight into the things he is trying to raise awareness about.  He almost certainly has had a different level of education as well and could probably do with a professional image designer to help him take the edge off his rhetoric.   But even if he turned into Saint Tommy of Luton overnight, the simple fact remains that the subject both he and Sarah Champion/Jess Phillips have commented on is not open for debate and anyone that dares to challenge that narrative is labelled racist.

[G STAR RAM]

17 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Man misunderstands the criminal justice system.

Yes, I do completely misunderstand it.

Not sure - I'll just go and ask the relatives of people killed at Finsbury Park Mosque and the Christchurch Mosque, oh and Jo Cox's husband. You know that all three of these maniacs were radicalized by Tommy Robinson's aggressive outrage tactics?

He has radicalised people he has never had any contact with? If I went out and killed someone and said it was based on what you was writing on DCFC Fans would that make you a radical hate spreader?

Yes. Try posting something anti-semitic on Twitter and report back to me what happens. Well known Nation of Islam anti-semite Louis Farrakhan is banned from most of the same social media platforms as TR. What's your point?

My point is one rule for one, and one rule for another.

For the avoidance of doubt, I agree with private social media platforms aiding the security of the world by de-platforming ALL extremists. That's TR, anti-semites and Islamic extremists. All of them.

So you'd agree with Jeremy Corbyn being removed from all social media then?

 

[Stive Pesley]

31 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

He has radicalised people he has never had any contact with? If I went out and killed someone and said it was based on what you was writing on DCFC Fans would that make you a radical hate spreader?

Really - if I was trying to incite people to violence, then 1) yes that would make me guilty if someone then went and did a violent act and referenced my postings but then 2) Dave would permaban me long before that happened

Also - you know when islamic terrorists shout "Allah Akbar" before opening fire - none of them have *actually* met Allah?

37 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

So you'd agree with Jeremy Corbyn being removed from all social media then?

I would if he was spreading hate and his end goal was to lead a violent uprising of the white working class against minorities. But he's a 70 year old life-long pacifist and peace-seeker - so....erm....no?

 

[G STAR RAM]

Just now, StivePesley said:

Really - if I was trying to incite people to violence, then 1) yes that would make me guilty if someone then went and did a violent act and referenced my postings but then 2) Dave would permaban me long before that happened

Agreed. Can you please show me where he has been inciting violence? The only thing I have seen him say is the complete opposite.

Also - you know when islamic terrorists shout "Allah Akbar" before opening fire - none of them have *actually* met Allah?

No, but they have read the book which, is interpreted by some, to encourage the killing of the infidels and non believers. Once again if you can send me some links where TR has done this sort of thing I will be the first to condemn him.

I would if he was spreading hate and his end goal was to lead a violent uprising of the white working class against minorities. But he's a 70 year old life-long pacifist and peace-seeker - so....erm....no?

?

 

[ronnieronalde]

3 hours ago, StivePesley said:

Are you seriously suggesting we feel sorry for someone who pleaded guilty to mortgage fraud and spent 18 months in prison as a result?

Still - the EU election results prove the efficacy of no-platforming fascists.

I know there are a few TR symapthisers on here with their "oh I dont like his views and I agree that his methods are too aggressive, and we shouldn't judge him for his criminal record for mortgage fraud, passport fakery and assault - but it's tewwible that he's had his social media accounts removed" schtick - but the bottom line is that, whatever crumbs of validity his message may have, it's all totally undermined by the fact he is spreading hate, Using hate to try and cause civil unrest against minorities. If you think he should be given a wider platform then you are endorsing the spread of hate and radicalization.

 

I hope you don't class me as one of the "few"

I won't speak for anyone else but If i get thrown into being a TR sympathiser then me and you might as well fall out now.

You're clearly not reading what I'm posting.

Did you watch that Oldham video or did you just stick your fingers in your ears and go la la la "racist sympathiser" The behaviour of the police and the 200 lads who were bussed in from Halifax is nothing short of a disgrace. It needs to be asked how and why those lads were marched by the police directly to the scene.

If you're not concerned enough to ask, that's your business.

Ignore it if you want but please don't  label me a TR sympathiser who is endorsing the spread of hate and radicalisation.

Christ on a bike.

I really can see why people get annoyed at being labelled when it's clear you can't have looked at what went on.

Both sides are as bad as each other. There is no right here but if you lump everyone into the boat of being a racist, it's so cheap and easy.

Did you watch the Oldham video?

[eddie]

4 hours ago, FindernRam said:

With all our navel gazing over Brexit it is easy to overlook what a divided shambles the EU Parliament has now become. 

No wonder the EU Commission runs the place, and parliament rubber stamps the commission policies.

So the bureaucrats run the show, which is why our Civil Service are so enamoured of the EU; its heaven for them!

Democracy is a dead man walking!

Somebody has to look after our interests. Thank goodness for the EU.

[Stive Pesley]

8 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

I hope you don't class me as one of the "few"

I won't speak for anyone else but If i get thrown into being a TR sympathiser then me and you might as well fall out now.

No mate - 100% not aimed at you. I'm on a similar page to yourself. I have actually watched some of his videos and listened to what he says. How can anyone legitimately criticise otherwise? None of it has changed my mind. The big problem comes when you ask yourself - "what does he aim to achieve?" Whatever legitimate subjects he might want to raise - there is a lot of rhetoric, rabble-rousing, threatening, intimidatory tactics going on. Classic Mosely-style facism. Stoking people's anger - as a means to what end?  If he was offering solutions then maybe I'd have a bit more time for the people (not you) sympathising with him

But for now we should probably let him crawl back under his shell - lost his deposit - roundly rejected by the general public.

 

 

[maxjam]

17 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

 If he was offering solutions then maybe I'd have a bit more time for the people (not you) sympathising with him

Does raising awareness automatically mean you have to offer solutions?

And don't forget he was started his activism during the time this was being wilfully covered up by authorities as the recent report into grooming gangs has proved fact - what other options does a powerless working class guy have when he sees friends and neighbours daughters being raped whilst police and councillors turn a blind eye.  Just reading the report makes you feel sick.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

Does raising awareness automatically mean you have to offer solutions?

Well let's just say that traditionally it helps.

I mean "raising awareness" in the context of what we're talking about  *without* offering any solutions is just unhelpful isn't it? Creating an "us and them" narrative - increasing divisions, actively encouraging people to be angry. I'll ask again - what is his aim if he's not offering any solutions? When did stoking tension ever solve anything?

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

Just reading the report makes you feel sick.

Yeah of course - and so it should. It's about abuse. All accounts of abuse make me feel sick. Whatever the religion or ethnicity. Catholic priests, kids football coaches..anyone. Alarm bells should rightly be ringing if people in the far right are using it as a recruitment tool.

 

 

[maxjam]

44 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Well let's just say that traditionally it helps.

I mean "raising awareness" in the context of what we're talking about  *without* offering any solutions is just unhelpful isn't it? Creating an "us and them" narrative - increasing divisions, actively encouraging people to be angry. I'll ask again - what is his aim if he's not offering any solutions? When did stoking tension ever solve anything?

Already answered - raising awareness when its being systematically covered up.

I'll agree that the rhetoric could be dialled back a bit but as I've always argued, Tommy Robinson is what you end up with when 'normal' people are to scared to talk.