Norman Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said: It will be the fault of the EU (despite them having no incentive to do anything other than protect their own interests) or the fault of remainer MP's (despite the whopping majority they now have) or some other bogeyman they will create to cover their own inadequacies. So you criticise them if they fail to use their new majority above, but criticise for using it a few posts before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said: The withdrawal agreement isn't the deal. The deal is the agreement we sort out during the transition period. A transition period that Johnson now wants to put a time limit of one year on. I guarantee you can't do a comprehensive trade deal with Europe in one year. It's taken us this long just to figure out step one, which should have been the easier bit. The Withdrawal Agreement is still on the table. It can still be negotiated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Norman said: So you criticise them if they fail to use their new majority above, but criticise for using it a few posts before. No, I never once mentioned their majorty did I? I am criticising them for trying to implement overly ambitious time limits when at every stage of this process things have taken longer than we would have hoped to get done. In a game of brinksmanship we come out of it worse if it all goes to pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Just now, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said: No, I never once mentioned their majorty did I? I am criticising them for trying to implement overly ambitios time limits when at every stage of this process things have taken longer than we would have hoped to get done. In a game of brinksmanship we come out of it worse if it all goes to pot. You criticised No Deal being back on the table now it is an option because they have a majority. AKA using their majority for more powerful negotiation. But will criticise them if they don't use their majority effectively. What is it you would do with a majority to get a better deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, Norman said: You criticised No Deal being back on the table now it is an option because they have a majority. AKA using their majority for more powerful negotiation. But will criticise them if they don't use their majority effectively. What is it you would do with a majority to get a better deal? Push ahead with the current withdrawal agreement as soon as possible (because the withdrawal agreement is not the final deal, its the withdrawal agreement) to maximise the amount of time we have to work on the actual deal which will take a lot of time and many rounds of back and forth negotiation to sort out. If we now go back to the EU and say "sorry lads that agreement we sorted out just before this election is no good now" then we are back to square one and the clock is still ticking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said: Push ahead with the current withdrawal agreement as soon as possible (because the withdrawal agreement is not the final deal, its the withdrawal agreement) to maximise the amouont of time we have to work on the actual deal which will take a lot of time and many rounds of back and forth negotiation to sort out. We are pushing ahead with it. The deadline to get it done is Jan 31st. Why would we not attempt to get some concessions in the next 40 days? Such as a dealine for both parties of December 31st 2020 for trade deals to be concluded in principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, Norman said: What is it you would do with a majority to get a better deal? Revoke article 50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Just now, Norman said: We are pushing ahead with it. The deadline to get it done is Jan 31st. Why would we not attempt to get some concessions in the next 40 days? Such as a dealine for both parties of December 31st 2020 for trade deals to be concluded in principle. Why should the EU bother accepting any more concessions? The remaining time is for us to get our arses in to gear and get it through parliament, not to move the gloalposts. Hardly a good indicator of how we will conduct ourselves in the wider negotiations is it? Regarding the deadline, it's clearly mental. Given how the process has moved so far and how long other nations have taken to get a proper deal struck only giving ourselves a year is remarkably stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Revoke article 50. Rather undemocratic of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Norman said: Rather undemocratic of you. But I've got a majority, so it's completely democratic of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said: Why should the EU bother accepting any more concessions? The remaining time is for us to get our arses in to gear and get it through parliament, not to move the gloalposts. Hardly a good indicator of how we will conduct ourselves in the wider negotiations is it? Regarding the deadline, it's clearly mental. Given how the process has moved so far and how long other nations have taken to get a proper deal struck only giving ourselves a year is remarkably stupid. Why should we not try? I would expect our government has negotiations in place already, seeing as though they have nearly been at the negotiation table ready to start 4 or 5 times in the last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Just now, GboroRam said: But I've got a majority, so it's completely democratic of me. Well it's not, because the country voted for Brexit. And you're a Conservative PM. Because even in this stupid imaginary world, Labour still wouldn't get in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Just now, Norman said: Why should we not try? I would expect our government has negotiations in place already, seeing as though they have nearly been at the negotiation table ready to start 4 or 5 times in the last year. Given that most of the time during these negotiations we had May's team around the table who proved to be completely incompetent I wouldn't imagine we are anywhere close to the kind of overall deal we need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, Norman said: Well it's not, because the country voted for Brexit. And you're a Conservative PM. Because even in this stupid imaginary world, Labour still wouldn't get in. More people in the UK voted for parties with a remain position than a leave position in the latest election, so I would say it's entirely undemocratic for them to have no representation in this process. FPTP ensured the size of the majority, not the actual numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, Norman said: Well it's not, because the country voted for Brexit. And you're a Conservative PM. Because even in this stupid imaginary world, Labour still wouldn't get in. I can't see any improved deal than EU membership. But the great thing is, it's not my problem any more. It's Boris'. If he gets a good deal, great. If he doesn't - what will you say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 18 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Revoke article 50. Yes Jo Swinson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Good point, GboroRam. The onus is now on the leavers to prove that they have what it takes to deliver. To any leavers on this forum, if it goes as badly as a lot of people suspect it may, will you admit you were wrong? I will gladly hold my hands up if everything goes swimmingly from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 I do wonder how long the trade deal negotiations will actually take. It keeps being compared to other deals like Canada (7 years) but since we're already aligned with EU rules, I would expect a pretty comprehensive free trade deal to be a lot quicker than that. There must be "off the shelf" deals that have been agreed with other countries that can be used as a starting template and amended from there?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, GboroRam said: I can't see any improved deal than EU membership. But the great thing is, it's not my problem any more. It's Boris'. If he gets a good deal, great. If he doesn't - what will you say? That we shouldn't have left the EU. See, it's not hard to say stuff like that when you're not tribal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said: Good point, GboroRam. The onus is now on the leavers to prove that they have what it takes to deliver. To any leavers on this forum, if it goes as badly as a lot of people suspect it may, will you admit you were wrong? I will gladly hold my hands up if everything goes swimmingly from here. Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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