The Politics Thread 2019

[ariotofmyown]

28 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Yep - see my post yesterday. Making this election a proxy second referendum is an incredibly risky strategy for any party under FPTP

 

I think it's a particularly risky strategy for the Tories. I struggle to understand how they expect to win more seats than last time. Lib Dems/Labour will win non-Tory Remain areas, can't see how the Tories will take any Leave Labour areas they didn't win last time, traditional Tory areas might also be under threat like Beaconsfield with popular ex-Tories standing.

[ariotofmyown]

3 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

That's the frustration - the non-Tory parties could easily form a popular and workable coalition, but daren't say that yet as it seems an admission of weakness

I just expect it will happen though, just not formally. There also can't be many areas where a split vote between Lib Dems and Labour could let the Tories in. Maybe in London perhaps, but expect unofficial voices to raise this, plus people on ground with a wink.

 

[maxjam]

https://news.sky.com/story/live-downing-st-zealots-purging-tories-of-moderates-ken-clarke-11850860

Farage has just offered the Tories an election pact, they would be mad to ignore it imo.  The Tories aren't going to win Labour leave seats but the Brexit Party might.

The Brexit Party are also running with a political reform policy, I'll have to check that out in more detail but that and Brexit are vote winners for me.

[TomBustler1884]

1 hour ago, Angry Ram said:

And I ask again, where do you see the EU in 30 years time?

I see it as an organised trading bloc with real economic power that has enshrined personal freedoms and rights.

I dont see a Brexited UK having the same position.

[TomBustler1884]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

You've honestly never heard anyone put forward any arguments for the benefits of Brexit?

Or you have heard the arguments and dont agree with them or prefer to believe the other side of the argument?

Even on this forum there have been plenty of arguments put forward but they tend to get swept under the carpet only for 2 pages later for someone to say 'I've not heard anyone say what the actual benefits of Brexit might be', it's really like Groundhog Day!

In terms of Corbyn, I certainly dont hate the man, that's a very strong word for someone who I dont know and rely on media information for trying to assess his character. Some reasons why people may dislike him:-

- Career politician who has never done a proper days work in his life but claims to represent the people. 

- Has most of his political career (from what I can tell) been very anti EU but now seems to have changed his mind to try and get into No 10 via the back door.

- His supposed affinity with terrorist organisation whilst simultaneously turning his back on the British system.

- His tolerance of anti semitism.

Just a few ideas, and not necessarily my personal views

I've heard people say we get our country back, we take control, we stop immigration, we can make our own laws.

Those are the only arguments I hear consistently. The first two dont mean anything, the third doesnt affect non-EU immigration and fails to consider emigration, whilst the fourth will not benefit "the people" with a rightwing government in place! Imho obviously.

As for Corbyn, I would argue vast majority of MPs under 50 are careerists, not sure he has totally changed his personal views on EU.

The terrorist thing? Well I think he has advocated a more measured approach than the likes of Trump or Johnson, evidenced by the Iranian situation recently where he was proved right. I cant speak on the IRA issues, not really being old enough or knowledgeable enough to!

His terrible handling of Anti-semitism is fair enough though.

[WhiteHorseRam]

1 hour ago, Van Wolfie said:

Well, quite?

It's also why I generally find myself on here defending the Tories against false or misleading accusations from the left - when I'm fairly sure I've never voted Tory in my life.

How very dare you … our false and misleading accusations are our best stuff!!

[WhiteHorseRam]

6 minutes ago, TomBustler1884 said:

I see it as an organised trading bloc with real economic power that has enshrined personal freedoms and rights.

I dont see a Brexited UK having the same position.

What the hell? You need to have a word with yourself.

Strip off, stand outside in the rain for 30 minutes and sing the national anthem, while giving yourself a scrub down with vintage stilton and a wire brush.

Just maybe you could then qualify for a unicorn.

[Stive Pesley]

5 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I just expect it will happen though, just not formally. There also can't be many areas where a split vote between Lib Dems and Labour could let the Tories in. Maybe in London perhaps

Derby North for one!

The Tories got in in 2015 because of a surge in LibDem popularity under Nick Clegg splitting the Labour vote

The fact that our Labour MP is currently suspended doesn't help. If he runs as an Independent he will split the Labour vote. If he gets reinstated then that will also split the Labour vote between those who are on his side and those who aren't. If he stands down, we get a random new Labour candidate with no connection to the electorate.

The latter is probably the best of all the rubbish outcomes, but by no means guarantees the seat stays out of Tory hands

 

[Angry Ram]

7 minutes ago, TomBustler1884 said:

I see it as an organised trading bloc with real economic power that has enshrined personal freedoms and rights.

I dont see a Brexited UK having the same position.

I admire your optimism. I see a crumbling loose collection of completely dysfunctional countries, who are a million miles apart on a cultural level and also economically. Look at how it's changed in the last 30 years and how has that change come about. Europe has never been stable, it's always been a powder keg. 

[Stive Pesley]

11 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

Look at how it's changed in the last 30 years and how has that change come about. Europe has never been stable, it's always been a powder keg. 

Yet an unprecedented 30 years with no wars between European countries? Go figure.

Where do you see Europe in another 30 years if the EU project is abandoned? A pile of ashes probably

[tomsdubs]

I love the Corbyn terrorist line we always hear from Tories, just point them towards Maria Gatland. Current Tory councillor outed as a former IRA member who was suspended then allowed back in.

[G STAR RAM]

7 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Yet an unprecedented 30 years with no wars between European countries? Go figure.

Where do you see Europe in another 30 years if the EU project is abandoned? A pile of ashes probably

Yeah if you choose to ignore everything that happened in The Balkans in the 1990s...

[G STAR RAM]

3 minutes ago, tomsdubs said:

I love the Corbyn terrorist line we always hear from Tories, just point them towards Maria Gatland. Current Tory councillor outed as a former IRA member who was suspended then allowed back in.

2 wrongs dont make a right...

[Angry Ram]

9 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Yet an unprecedented 30 years with no wars between European countries? Go figure.

Where do you see Europe in another 30 years if the EU project is abandoned? A pile of ashes probably

Balkens?? 

[AndyinLiverpool]

14 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Yeah if you choose to ignore everything that happened in The Balkans in the 1990s...

Outside the EU

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

https://news.sky.com/story/live-downing-st-zealots-purging-tories-of-moderates-ken-clarke-11850860

Farage has just offered the Tories an election pact, they would be mad to ignore it imo.  The Tories aren't going to win Labour leave seats but the Brexit Party might.

The Brexit Party are also running with a political reform policy, I'll have to check that out in more detail but that and Brexit are vote winners for me.

Difficult to understand the point of the Tories if they don't join with Brexit party. All their moderate MPs are off and the ones who are left are hardcore Brexiteers.

Brexit Party is trying to appeal to the masses of poorer people who are pro-Brexit, which leaves the Tories going for the rich Brexit vote.

These richer Leavers, especially small business owners, have lot more to lose than the poorer, so could well drift towards Lib Dems.

Hopefully poorer Leave voters realise Brexit is a sham for them, and they stick with Labour.

Can't see Tories going for political reform though as that is what keeps them in power. 

[Stive Pesley]

24 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Outside the EU

And also - essentially a civil war amongst nationalistic/separatist entities within the country of Yugoslavia, rather than an international war

And also ended twenty years ago - so the point still largely stands 

 

[McRamFan]

On 31/10/2019 at 08:47, G STAR RAM said:

Bet you get an appointment straight away with my GP dont you?

Yeap, if I actually need a Doctor.  Sometimes a pharmacist, nurse practitioner or a HCA can deal with minor ailments.  Too many people think only a Doctor can make them 'better', hence they are dealing with poo such as runny noses, ear wax and other mild issues and people with potential serious health issues and threats get looked over.

If you can do the school run, I would hazard a guess you don't need a Doctor.  Try another health professional.

[Uptherams]

2 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

You mean you "hope" so you don't end up with a grand coalition.

No they definitely are and will. Polls are already reflecting an increasing combined share for the Conservatives and Brexit Party. 

[G STAR RAM]

12 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

Yeap, if I actually need a Doctor.  Sometimes a pharmacist, nurse practitioner or a HCA can deal with minor ailments.  Too many people think only a Doctor can make them 'better', hence they are dealing with poo such as runny noses, ear wax and other mild issues and people with potential serious health issues and threats get looked over.

If you can do the school run, I would hazard a guess you don't need a Doctor.  Try another health professional.

I'd imagine you go private with being such a VIP.