Derby County v Cardiff City - match day thread

[Alph]

5 hours ago, Andrew James said:

Sorry I didn't see you at the Real  game, or away at Gillingam in Div 2 when it was snowing !!! Bore off your clueless about football. 

How do you know he wasn't there?

Attendance has nothing to do with football. Nothing at all

[RamNut]

6 hours ago, HantsRam said:

And I am not blaming keogh but pearce was trying to tackle an attacker who broke through in keoghs position ie the right centre half position when he gave away the pen 

Lol

Pearce cocks up twice and its keogh's fault?!?

[Van der MoodHoover]

26 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Lol

Pearce cocks up twice and its keogh's fault?!?

No - but I am trying to understand what our defensive system is trying to do. Are we zonal or man marking?  If keogh - or any others- are given licence to carry the ball forward then how are the defenders behind being told to adapt and are they doing so?

There are many component parts. On that example all we saw on the clip was an attacker receiving the ball left side  (as attacker looked ) of our penalty area and the nearest man, who wasn't goalside was our opposite side cb. So how was the system supposed to work and where did it break down? For all I know keogh had carried forward and the cdm was supposed to drop but didn't. 

These are the insights I'd like to get out of mcclaren by intelligent questioning. 

[RamNut]

16 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

 all we saw on the clip was an attacker receiving the ball left side  (as attacker looked ) of our penalty area and the nearest man, who wasn't goalside was our opposite side cb. So how was the system supposed to work and where did it break down?

long ball straight to pearce who slices it badly. It drops short of keogh. Their striker gets a flick on. Pearce's man chases it into the box. Pearce trips him from behind.

http://www.skysports.com/watch/video/10768414/derby-3-4-cardiff

 

[Spenno]

Whereas earlier in the season we were too rigid defensively and lack any spark going forward we now seem to lack balance or shape defensively. It's like watching a game of basketball with every attack looking like it will result in a goal. They nearly scored directly after we went one up then again after we went two up so wasn't surprised they got back in the game but I liked the look of our midfield from an attacking perspective and felt that we had too much for them. Ultimately we were too weak through the centre. De sart isn't strong enough or have the discipline to play that role which is a shame because a couple of his passes were delightful yesterday. This meant the defenders were all being pulled out of position. Maybe de sart could sit deep but I think it would only work as part of a 4-2-3-1 formation with Johnson doing the dirty work beside him. Keogh always struggles against big centre forwards and is an accident waiting to happen every time he gets pulled wide. Obviously it's disappointing to lose but this wasn't anywhere near as horrible as some of our early season performances like Ipswich and Blackburn. On another note how bad was the referee? The number of times cynical challenges and kicking the ball away went unpunished was shocking makes you wonder what effect managers like warnock have on refs and the decisions they make. 

[Sith Happens]

Gutted by last night and the last two games. We should seriously have picked up 6 points, now we face a tough game against Burton which they will be up for.

2-0 up and cruising then losing 4-3 is awful. I am generally optimistic but I feel very deflated right now.

The season isn't over but we now need a decent run and it has to start Tuesday. 

The ref has been talked about and he had an odd game, I don't like too many bookings but not sure why he failed to get the card out, the kick of the ball away was a disgrace he didn't pick it up. Likewise stopping the game as derby were in an attacking position was too, but he didn't cost us the game we did.

I still cannot believe with our defensive record we have now conceded 7 at home in 2 games against the opposition we have. 

Seriously if there is one thing we need next season and that's an able deputy for GT, I know de sart looks comfortable on the ball but his work off it doesn't compare to thornes, nor does Johnsons. We have only had Eustace in recent years who was a decent back up, that has to be priority, we get cut open in midfield too much.

 

 

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

3 hours ago, RamNut said:

long ball straight to pearce who slices it badly. It drops short of keogh. Their striker gets a flick on. Pearce's man chases it into the box. Pearce trips him from behind.

http://www.skysports.com/watch/video/10768414/derby-3-4-cardiff

 

Cheers.

I think you've summed it up yourself in another thread. We have 2 cbs who don't naturally cover for each other.  Actually that's probably 3 as I can'tremember that being shackells forte either. 

So we either accept that with the risk that any individual slips are more likely to be exploited or we change our system to have covering cbs.

[ipad1977]

11 hours ago, TroyDyer said:

It won't change with Martin, Hughes, Thorne. The mental capabilities of this side is not good enough. We will always concede. 

IMHO your overall results won't change much wih Martin added to your side. You clearly have the personel to score goals as it is as they're already doing the business.

However a fully fit Hughes would make a difference as he's your best player at rapidly converting defence to attack. Once the opposing team realise this then they'd either try and stick 2 men on him or not commit as many bodies forward, wary of the sucker punch. Either way their less adventurous style would overall result in less goals conceded.

But the player who would make the most difference to your team is undoubtably Thorne. Stick him alongside De Sart in front of the back 4 and suddenly rather than one man who knows how to do the job but has his work cut out when two or more players push forward as they can pass around him; there's a decent barrier to break up attacking play right across the middle two thirds of the pitch, both savvy players who can position themselves exactly where needed. Attacks of your opponents will then be pushed far out wide, giving only a narrow channel for your LB/RB to defend which make it easier to block and harder for an opposing winger to get past as they'd have to run through your full back to get anywhere.

Your CB's would only be called into full action on the rare occassion attacks get through or more often if a long ball gets played over the top and CB's are best built for headers away from danger, it's the bread and butter they get taught from day one.

So I believe the previous poster was mainly right, having 2 of these 3 players back and at full fitness would make a big difference when played correctly. If so, pick your best back 4, have Thorne and De Sart sat in front of them, with Hughes playing just ahead, as when the two holders break up attacks he is the best outlet to pass to. Should Hughes get injured or need resting, Butters would probably be the best replacement, or possibly Ince as you've got plenty of players to fill in for him further ahead if need be..

Further upfield in your 3 pronged attack you've already got a plethora of options to pick from anyway. Martin would give you extra choice, but he's not essential for you to be a very strong side in the champo. But Bent would be the first name in that attacking 3, simply because he's probably the best at finding the net out of your entire squad. His defensive duties wouldn't come into it as much, due to the wall behind him.

[TroyDyer]

8 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

You're still judging him on the Mansfield game.

As Alex said lost his headers tonight, there are going to be games where that happens, but other than that was absolutely head and shoulders above Pearce.

I am not judging him on that game. I watch him play most weeks. He is reactionary and panics. He makes incredible last ditch challenges, but often to cover up his own error. He gets a Keogh keogh keogh from the SS but I don't consider that doing the basics well. As I said, he does the icing brilliantly. 

[unclej]

Marcus Olsson was superb. Cannot rate his performance highly enough. He must feel enormously let down by the eventual result when his individual performance was so good. 

[TroyDyer]

21 minutes ago, ipad1977 said:

IMHO your overall results won't change much wih Martin added to your side. You clearly have the personel to score goals as it is as they're already doing the business.

However a fully fit Hughes would make a difference as he's your best player at rapidly converting defence to attack. Once the opposing team realise this then they'd either try and stick 2 men on him or not commit as many bodies forward, wary of the sucker punch. Either way their less adventurous style would overall result in less goals conceded.

But the player who would make the most difference to your team is undoubtably Thorne. Stick him alongside De Sart in front of the back 4 and suddenly rather than one man who knows how to do the job but has his work cut out when two or more players push forward as they can pass around him; there's a decent barrier to break up attacking play right across the middle two thirds of the pitch, both savvy players who can position themselves exactly where needed. Attacks of your opponents will then be pushed far out wide, giving only a narrow channel for your LB/RB to defend which make it easier to block and harder for an opposing winger to get past as they'd have to run through your full back to get anywhere.

Your CB's would only be called into full action on the rare occassion attacks get through or more often if a long ball gets played over the top and CB's are best built for headers away from danger, it's the bread and butter they get taught from day one.

So I believe the previous poster was mainly right, having 2 of these 3 players back and at full fitness would make a big difference when played correctly. If so, pick your best back 4, have Thorne and De Sart sat in front of them, with Hughes playing just ahead, as when the two holders break up attacks he is the best outlet to pass to. Should Hughes get injured or need resting, Butters would probably be the best replacement, or possibly Ince as you've got plenty of players to fill in for him further ahead if need be..

Further upfield in your 3 pronged attack you've already got a plethora of options to pick from anyway. Martin would give you extra choice, but he's not essential for you to be a very strong side in the champo. But Bent would be the first name in that attacking 3, simply because he's probably the best at finding the net out of your entire squad. His defensive duties wouldn't come into it as much, due to the wall behind him.

I agree Thorne makes a major difference in protecting the back four. But if my auntie had ********, she'd be my uncle. We don't have Thorne and tbf, we never really have had. So it's basically like saying "if we had Gary Cahill we'd concede less goals". While that's true, it's irrelevant. 

I also feel that even with Thorne, our issues are deeper. We are a reflection of our mental state. Which unfortunately, is as strong as dundee cake in a puddle. 

[G STAR RAM]

3 minutes ago, TroyDyer said:

I am not judging him on that game. I watch him play most weeks. He is reactionary and panics. He makes incredible last ditch challenges, but often to cover up his own error. He gets a Keogh keogh keogh from the SS but I don't consider that doing the basics well. As I said, he does the icing brilliantly. 

Well you're seeing things that aren't there in my opinion.

Most of the time his lunging challenges are when the opponents have walked through our non existent midfield.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

Don't know if I missed something but didn't Cardiff beat Leeds last week??

They are now a good attacking side but they leak goals...Sound familiar?

No need for us to go bat **** crazy here and implode....If we had lost 4-0 I would understand it.

Clearly there is work to do in defence but that can be achieved in training.

Calm down....

[TroyDyer]

Just now, G STAR RAM said:

Well you're seeing things that aren't there in my opinion.

Most of the time his lunging challenges are when the opponents have walked through our non existent midfield.

We see different things, of course. That's the beauty of the game and the forum in general. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

35 minutes ago, ipad1977 said:

IMHO your overall results won't change much wih Martin added to your side. You clearly have the personel to score goals as it is as they're already doing the business.

However a fully fit Hughes would make a difference as he's your best player at rapidly converting defence to attack. Once the opposing team realise this then they'd either try and stick 2 men on him or not commit as many bodies forward, wary of the sucker punch. Either way their less adventurous style would overall result in less goals conceded.

But the player who would make the most difference to your team is undoubtably Thorne. Stick him alongside De Sart in front of the back 4 and suddenly rather than one man who knows how to do the job but has his work cut out when two or more players push forward as they can pass around him; there's a decent barrier to break up attacking play right across the middle two thirds of the pitch, both savvy players who can position themselves exactly where needed. Attacks of your opponents will then be pushed far out wide, giving only a narrow channel for your LB/RB to defend which make it easier to block and harder for an opposing winger to get past as they'd have to run through your full back to get anywhere.

Your CB's would only be called into full action on the rare occassion attacks get through or more often if a long ball gets played over the top and CB's are best built for headers away from danger, it's the bread and butter they get taught from day one.

So I believe the previous poster was mainly right, having 2 of these 3 players back and at full fitness would make a big difference when played correctly. If so, pick your best back 4, have Thorne and De Sart sat in front of them, with Hughes playing just ahead, as when the two holders break up attacks he is the best outlet to pass to. Should Hughes get injured or need resting, Butters would probably be the best replacement, or possibly Ince as you've got plenty of players to fill in for him further ahead if need be..

Further upfield in your 3 pronged attack you've already got a plethora of options to pick from anyway. Martin would give you extra choice, but he's not essential for you to be a very strong side in the champo. But Bent would be the first name in that attacking 3, simply because he's probably the best at finding the net out of your entire squad. His defensive duties wouldn't come into it as much, due to the wall behind him.

Thorne not back till next season. Like your thinking and hope that in our planning we'll be considering trying to attract de sart from boro. 

What are the chances? Does he feature in karankas planning? 

[England Ram]

            Carson

Baird  Keogh Shackell Lowe 

    DeSart.       Johnson 

           Hughes 

Ince.                  Anya 

              Bent. 

[Topram]

Still trying to work out how we could be so dominant then just full on collapse just like Leicester we conceded first minute of the second half! Ayna was causing nightmares at times but then got moved to RB to bring Russell on? I understand bringing on another forward but why put someone who got in behind easy in the first half at RB? If we needed Baird coming off then surely Christie should of come on, Pearce had a shocker but he's been excellent all season, once again Warnock knew how to break us!

[Topram]

And as much as I love Hughes he was woeful last night just doesn't look fit shouldn't off been in the 11

[ipad1977]

5 hours ago, HantsRam said:

Thorne not back till next season. Like your thinking and hope that in our planning we'll be considering trying to attract de sart from boro. 

What are the chances? Does he feature in karankas planning? 

Right at the moment I'm sure AK will have put him to the back of his mind, though of course keeping an eye on his performances for you so far. He'll be pleased that overall he hasn't been too bad, certainly not for a player who hadn't had much competetive action beforehand. Remember that the position of DM is probably of the most importance to Karanka, it's the key to our whole system.

Longterm though his future is less clear. As it stands Julien is 5th choice DM at Boro, with Clayton, De Roon, Forshaw and LeadBoots all ahead of him. However Leads can't go on forever in the Prem and as we play a lot of games with 3 DMs in the Prem, De Sart would very likely be the choice in the not too distant future to replace one of the other 3 if they are injured or to rest them for the odd game. He'd almost definitely make the bench. Bringing in another DM to replace Leadbitter would be another possibility, but is only likely to happen should we stay up.

The biggest problem with trying to predict De Sart's immediate future is that at the moment we don't know which league we will be playing in next season. I imagine you are more likely to be able to buy him if we survive this year though.

[Van der MoodHoover]

Just now, ipad1977 said:

Right at the moment I'm sure AK will have put him to the back of his mind, though of course keeping an eye on his performances for you so far. He'll be pleased that overall he hasn't been too bad, certainly not for a player who hadn't had much competetive action beforehand. Remember that the position of DM is probably of the most importance to Karanka, it's the key to our whole system.

Longterm though his future is less clear. As it stands Julien is 5th choice DM at Boro, with Clayton, De Roon, Forshaw and LeadBoots all ahead of him. However Leads can't go on forever in the Prem and as we play a lot of games with 3 DMs in the Prem, De Sart would very likely be the choice in the not too distant future to replace one of the other 3 if they are injured or to rest them for the odd game. He'd almost definitely make the bench. Bringing in another DM to replace Leadbitter would be another possibility, but is only likely to happen should we stay up.

The biggest problem with trying to predict De Sart's immediate future is that at the moment we don't know which league we will be playing in next season. I imagine you are more likely to be able to buy him if we survive this year though.

A fair and well reasoned assessment. 

For what it's worth I think there are 4 worse teams than boro so I have you boys to stay up