Bradley Johnson and the Penalty Shoot-out

[PodgeyRam]

23 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

Baffled by this comment.

Pearson was having a veiled (or not so veiled) dig at the fans for booing at half time. Not agreed with him much so far this season, but got to agree with him there.

[duncanjwitham]

14 minutes ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

So by that logic then, a player could injure himself between the last whistle of extra time and the penalties being taken for example twist and break his ankle. He is still expected to take a penalty, I don't think so. 

Yeah, sounds unlikely, but it has happened before:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/6766603.stm

Obviously not as serious as a broken ankle, but Steven Taylor could barely walk when he was forced to take his.

[Carl Sagan]

13 minutes ago, LazloW said:

Sorry, I should've made it clearer. There is a comment from NP in the article referred to in your message which mentions something about yardsticks, performances and booing. Hope that clarifies things... 'Twas merely a musing about the quote not a comment on your comment.

 

 

Aha! Missed that. As you point out, further down the article NP is indeed quoted as saying:

"If your yardstick of measuring a performance is having a few boos at half-time when we come off because they've had a lot of possession, then whatever, but we should still be creating enough chances."

so yes you're probably right!

[DCFC83]

People do need to lay off Johnson. As a coach i know that confidence is a players fuel! Its what drives them.. The moment the head drops that's it! I have been as frustrated as anyone by his performances for the last 6 months at least but.. Booing isn't going to achieve nothing but more poor touches, passing and commitment! Wonder what would happen to him if we all actually got behind him!?

[Sith Happens]

Just now, DCFC83 said:

People do need to lay off Johnson. As a coach i know that confidence is a players fuel! Its what drives them.. The moment the head drops that's it! I have been as frustrated as anyone by his performances for the last 6 months at least but.. Booing isn't going to achieve nothing but more poor touches, passing and commitment! Wonder what would happen to him if we all actually got behind him!?

Dont be daft, some our brain dead fans need someone to boo, we have always got someone we dont like, we just seem to have a few right now. Somewhere inside johnson is a cracking player....give him some support and i am sure we will find him.

[Mafiabob]

3 hours ago, rynny said:

We need @Mafiabob to settle this one I think.

Backing away from this one. I hadn't a clue what went on.

I refereed for 10 years, I never once was involved in a penalty shootout. 

From look at rules, Johnson was on field of play at end of game. So should have took one? All very vague and I can imagine they'll be some sort of directive rushed out for next season.....

[Ted McMinn Football Genius]

1 hour ago, duncanjwitham said:

Yeah, sounds unlikely, but it has happened before:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/6766603.stm

Obviously not as serious as a broken ankle, but Steven Taylor could barely walk when he was forced to take his.

That's an unfair advantage surely.

Just playing devils advocate here.... what if a player did something between the final whistle and penalties which warranted a red card then leaving it 10 vs 11?

[Rich84]

So 20hrs later after several independent attempts at researching the rules, we are still non the wiser!

[Sith Happens]

I was glad he didn't take one, not because I thought he would miss, more the reaction had he done so. Although I dare bet there was quite a few people hoping he would and miss.

 

[Sith Happens]

4 minutes ago, Rich84 said:

So 20hrs later after several independent attempts at researching the rules, we are still non the wiser!

Ref must have agreed end of, if there is any comeback its his problem

[Rich84]

7 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

I was glad he didn't take one, not because I thought he would miss, more the reaction had he done so. Although I dare bet there was quite a few people hoping he would and miss.

 

I was cringing when Baird and Blackman took theirs in case they missed, could you imagine the melt down on here and that would have just been @B4ev6is. Lucky for Pearce that Hughes missed first or he'd have got stick.

[duncanjwitham]

The ref is being investigated by the official refereeing body:

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/carlisle-utd/latest/article/Referees-body-to-probe-rule-breach-during-Carlisle-Utd-shoot-out-3dfe5e9f-188d-4acb-9beb-ccaea887772f-ds

 

[Sith Happens]

4 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

The ref is being investigated by the official refereeing body:

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/carlisle-utd/latest/article/Referees-body-to-probe-rule-breach-during-Carlisle-Utd-shoot-out-3dfe5e9f-188d-4acb-9beb-ccaea887772f-ds

 

ha so Keith Curle having a moan, but they are more in breach than us by playing their goalie in goal for the penalties

[Animal is a Ram]

England's refereeing body are set to investigate how a rule was apparently breached during Carlisle United's epic penalty shoot-out defeat at Derby.

Professional Game Match Officials Limited (PGMOL) are looking into the handling of Tuesday's EFL Cup marathon, which Derby eventually won 14-13.

The focus is on why ref Darren England did not instruct a Carlisle player to withdraw from the shoot-out after Derby midfielder Bradley Johnson was deemed unable to take part.

The EFL are satisfied Derby themselves did not break any rule by advising the fourth official midway through the shoot-out that Johnson - who ended the game with an ankle injury - could not take a penalty.

At that point Carlisle had to nominate a player to withdraw from the shoot-out to even up the numbers.

But although their nominated player, keeper Mark Gillespie, did not take a penalty for the Blues, he was allowed to remain in goal to face all Derby's 16 spot-kicks.

That amounted to a rule breach - and it is this the decision by ref England and his colleagues that will come under scrutiny.

There is no suggestion that United sought to gain any illegal advantage or will face any sanction, while there is no sign that either club is pursuing the matter with the authorities.

PGMOL's probe, though, follows Keith Curle's post-match call for "clarity", with the shoot-out having been briefly delayed whilst the matter was being debated by the officials.

An EFL spokesman last night told the News & Star: "Under the laws of the game, any player that is on the field at the final whistle, or receiving treatment, is eligible to take a kick.

"In this particular case, Derby were trying to get him [Johnson] ready, and they kept the fourth official informed.

"But at 8-8 [in the shoot-out], it became clear that he wouldn't be able to participate, and they informed the officials - and that is within the laws of the game.

"Carlisle nominated the goalkeeper, which means he had to leave the field of play - but he didn't.

"Technically there has been an infringement.

"The PGMOL are dealing with the issue and will discuss it in the next 24-48 hours."

Law 10 in the FA's rules and governance section states: "If, at the end of the match and before or during the kicks, one team has a greater number of players than its opponents, it must reduce its numbers to the same number as its opponents and the referee must be informed of the name and number of each player excluded.

"Any excluded player is not eligible to take part in the kicks."

Derby manager Pearson said he understood Carlisle's concerns at the time, but stressed Johnson was injured and the Rams had done nothing wrong.

"He [Johnson] was unable to take part in the penalty shoot out which caused a little bit of unhappiness in the technical area, but I'm not paid to manage the game," said Pearson.

"Carlisle weren't over-pleased with that but do you expect a player who is injured to take a penalty?

"It's one of those situations where I understand their perspective and it's up to the officials to deal with that and, eventually, they did."

Curle had said he was "disappointed" at the timing of Johnson's withdrawal.

After the game the United boss said: "I would have thought, once you go through extra-time, you then nominate your penalty takers but also nominate the people who can’t take penalties.

"I could have said to my players - 'I don't want you to take a penalty, be injured'.

"That’s what the confusion was. I think there should be some clarity on that."

[IlsonDerby]

So Carlisle broke the rules. Hit them with a big fine for Curle being such a whinging git.

[Kernow]

Would be interesting to see our action if we got knocked out. Would we have kicked off or just accepted it and let it go?

[RadioactiveWaste]

I think this will probably end up a slap on the wrist for the ref, clarification being made to league refs, no further action on either club, Derby didnt break the rules, Carlisle only did because the officials were not clear enough with them and let them do it thinking itwas OK. I doubt theyd have nominated their kreeper to take no part and put some other poor sod in forthem. 

[Animal is a Ram]

It would be harsh to punish either club for this - it should fall on the referee's head as he is responsible for the enforcement of the laws of the game, none other.

[Carl Sagan]

Curle's right that Derby have set a precedent in that a player can now feign injury to get out of the penalties. According to the report we only announced he was unfit after the 8th pen. If it had been after the 10th pen, according to the version of the rules stated in the report we'd have forced their goalie to leave the field and not be able to take part from then on which is clearly ridiculous. I imagine the rules will be clarified to stop clubs doing what Derby did and pull a player mid-shootout.

But. I'm glad it sounds from this as though there's no risk of the tie being replayed or the result overturned. And I think it's been good of Carlisle not to contest things formally. Is this the moment we'll look back on when we win the EFL Cup next year as part of an amazing cup and promotion double?

[Srg]

1 minute ago, Carl Sagan said:

Curle's right that Derby have set a precedent in that a player can now feign injury to get out of the penalties. According to the report we only announced he was unfit after the 8th pen. If it had been after the 10th pen, according to the version of the rules stated in the report we'd have forced their goalie to leave the field and not be able to take part from then on which is clearly ridiculous. I imagine the rules will be clarified to stop clubs doing what Derby did and pull a player mid-shootout.

But. I'm glad it sounds from this as though there's no risk of the tie being replayed or the result overturned. And I think it's been good of Carlisle not to contest things formally. Is this the moment we'll look back on when we win the EFL Cup next year as part of an amazing cup and promotion double?

They don't actually have a leg to stand on to contest it formally, I'd presume that's why they hadn't. In theory, they broke the rules by continuing to have their goalkeeper actually trying to save penalties as well as not take one.