Chris Martin

[JimmyDCFC]

1 hour ago, McLovin said:

I'm talking from the perspective of a defender. Defenders always have and always will hate playing pace on any level. Again see what Musa did against Barcelona the other day. He scared the Barca backline shitless because he was quick. Even Demarai Gray and Schlupp had decent games against Barca because they were quick and direct. I'm not saying Bent is better than Martin, I'm saying I'd rather face Martin as a defender. Martin may drop deep but I tell you what defenders are more comfortable with that than strikers running in behind or in the channels. I disagree that some of the best forwards are more like Martin than Bent. The likes of Aguero,Lewandowski, Suarez run in behind like Bent does and are quick. Bent does have quality along with his pace otherwise he would not have been a premier league player for years. I agree with you that pace alone won't get you far but it gives you half a chance. I wouldn't say Walcott or Navas are complete garbage like you say either because both have played at the highest level. David Alaba said that Walcott is one of the toughest playest he has played against because he is quick and direct. When Navas was at Sevilla, he was Del Bosque's go to man for the Spain national side, why? Because he has pace. He stretched the game. What did Torres and Villa have in common? Pace and quality. What did the Portugal team in the euros have up front? Pace and quality. Anyway, I'm referring more to the game in England, not other European leagues where the game is a bit slower. Would Vardy be one of the best players in any other European league? Nope but I'm talking hypothetically. Vidic says that he still has nightmares of Torres in his prime. Not just because of his quality but because of his raw pace which terrified him. I wouldn't say that Nesta and Maldini were exactly slow either, both were brilliant athletes in their prime which is why they were so good. Their athleticism combined with their understanding of the game is what made them so great. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

I played as a Centre back for most of my teenage years and I was one of the slowest players in the league, but pace didn't bother me. If you position yourself properly, no pace will undo that. Look at Igor, didn't need to be quick because he read the game so superbly, same with Paul McGrath. As Alpha said, the worst thing to come up against was a striker who was simply thinking one step ahead of you, it was a nightmare trying to position yourself whilst also trying to work out what on earth they'd do next. 

I get why pace could be important, but if a player is as intelligent as Chris Martin, they don't need the pace. Many people have said it on here and I agree; Martin - along with Hughes and Thorne - is one of our most technically brilliant players. He knows the game inside out, the ol' wardrobe trick never fails, look at his assists for Butterfield vs Burnley and Thorne vs United, he opened up the defence without the need for pace. 

[Alph]

20 minutes ago, JimmyDCFC said:

I played as a Centre back for most of my teenage years and I was one of the slowest players in the league, but pace didn't bother me. If you position yourself properly, no pace will undo that. Look at Igor, didn't need to be quick because he read the game so superbly, same with Paul McGrath. As Alpha said, the worst thing to come up against was a striker who was simply thinking one step ahead of you, it was a nightmare trying to position yourself whilst also trying to work out what on earth they'd do next. 

I get why pace could be important, but if a player is as intelligent as Chris Martin, they don't need the pace. Many people have said it on here and I agree; Martin - along with Hughes and Thorne - is one of our most technically brilliant players. He knows the game inside out, the ol' wardrobe trick never fails, look at his assists for Butterfield vs Burnley and Thorne vs United, he opened up the defence without the need for pace. 

Paul McGrath!!! 

Training hard with a pint and some cigarettes all week. Couldn't run a bath. 

Turn up on match day and school some newbies! 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, jono said:

Another astute post Alpha .. Another "slo mo"to add to that list .. Teddy Sherringham .. One of my all time favourites .. Players that Ghost into position are artists and can be a delight to watch. 

Bergkamp another slow great of the PL era. 

Just really clever at daring defenders to leave the safety of their line. And with the pace Arsenal move the ball that team just caused havoc with opponents positioning. 

Thierry Henry obviously known for his pace was always great at drifting into that left channel and sucking defenders out their line and leaving open ground behind them. I'd say it wasn't his pace that beat them. It was that "come chase me" dare him and Pires would play. The pace was just the finish. Best PL player imo. 

Good pundit too isn't he? Actually points out shape and movement rather than talks ***** about referees and distance ran.

[Sexydadbod]

1 hour ago, JimmyDCFC said:

I played as a Centre back for most of my teenage years and I was one of the slowest players in the league, but pace didn't bother me. If you position yourself properly, no pace will undo that. Look at Igor, didn't need to be quick because he read the game so superbly, same with Paul McGrath. As Alpha said, the worst thing to come up against was a striker who was simply thinking one step ahead of you, it was a nightmare trying to position yourself whilst also trying to work out what on earth they'd do next. 

I get why pace could be important, but if a player is as intelligent as Chris Martin, they don't need the pace. Many people have said it on here and I agree; Martin - along with Hughes and Thorne - is one of our most technically brilliant players. He knows the game inside out, the ol' wardrobe trick never fails, look at his assists for Butterfield vs Burnley and Thorne vs United, he opened up the defence without the need for pace. 

I understand that but Bent doesn't just have pace like some suggest, he is an intelligent player too otherwise he wouldn't have played in the prem for such a long period of time and at a much higher level than Martin ever has in his career. Martin is a smart player but so is Bent. You can have pace but not have a football brain like Theo Robinson, that wouldn't concern me but if a striker was quick and intelligent then it would be my worst nightmare.  I was a defender too and I hated playing against pacy forwards who were intelligent. If they didn't have a football brain, most of the time they wouldn't know how to utilize their pace and would fall over their own feet. 

[rynny]

7 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Bergkamp another slow great of the PL era. 

Just really clever at daring defenders to leave the safety of their line. And with the pace Arsenal move the ball that team just caused havoc with opponents positioning. 

Thierry Henry obviously known for his pace was always great at drifting into that left channel and sucking defenders out their line and leaving open ground behind them. I'd say it wasn't his pace that beat them. It was that "come chase me" dare him and Pires would play. The pace was just the finish. Best PL player imo. 

Good pundit too isn't he? Actually points out shape and movement rather than talks ***** about referees and distance ran.

If you look at the top 10 all time premier league top scorers, how many would be considered pacy strikers?

1. Alan Shearer

2.Wayne Rooney

3.Andy Cole

4. Frank Lampard

5. Thierry Henry

6.  Robbie Fowler

7. Michael Owen

8. Les Ferdinand

9. Teddy Sheringham

10. Robin van Persie

Henry and Owen? Even looking at the next 10 Defoe, Hasselbaink, Keane, Anelka, Yorke, Gerrard, Wright, Dublin, Heskey, Giggs, how many of those?

[Sexydadbod]

10 minutes ago, rynny said:

If you look at the top 10 all time premier league top scorers, how many would be considered pacy strikers?

1. Alan Shearer

2.Wayne Rooney

3.Andy Cole

4. Frank Lampard

5. Thierry Henry

6.  Robbie Fowler

7. Michael Owen

8. Les Ferdinand

9. Teddy Sheringham

10. Robin van Persie

Henry and Owen? Even looking at the next 10 Defoe, Hasselbaink, Keane, Anelka, Yorke, Gerrard, Wright, Dublin, Heskey, Giggs, how many of those?

Some of the best players in the last 10 years have a lot of pace. I wouldn't look at the top ten premier league scorers as as example because the best players usually come or go from Spain so aren't here for a long enough period to feature on the top 10 premier league scorers list. If you look at some of the best players in the world currently: Ronaldo, Messi,Bale,Suarez,Neymar,Griezmann,Robben,Ribery,Aguero,Di Maria,Lewandowski,Benzema, Aubameyeng,Reus,Hazard. All of these attacking players are quick. We can agree that if you have speed but not an intelligent brain you may not get to the top but if you have speed and a brain,you have a very good chance of having a successful career and becoming a top player.

[Sexydadbod]

Anyway my original point was that I'd rather have to face Martin than Bent if I was a pro footballer, not that I'd rather face Martin than Theo Robinson. Bent's a clever footballer too like Martin but in different ways. 

[JimmyDCFC]

Yeah I see your point, though our reasons for disagreeing could just come down to us being different types of defenders, every footballer is different after all. 

[rynny]

6 minutes ago, McLovin said:

I understand that but Bent doesn't just have pace like some suggest, he is an intelligent player too otherwise he wouldn't have played in the prem for such a long period of time and at a much higher level than Martin ever has in his career. Martin is a smart player but so is Bent. You can have pace but not have a football brain like Theo Robinson, that wouldn't concern me but if a striker was quick and intelligent then it would be my worst nightmare.  I was a defender too and I hated playing against pacy forwards who were intelligent. If they didn't have a football brain, most of the time they wouldn't know how to utilize their pace and would fall over their own feet. 

Think I can say quite comfortably that there isn't 1 type of striker that all defenders dislike going up against. Some are more suited to having to have a foot race with the attackers, some prefer the dropping deep and trying to win the battle.

I have always said about Bent, right from when Spurs signed him that he is a great attacker to build your team around, you make him your main man and he will score you goals, but if you have a way of playing that he isn't suited to then he will look fairly anonymous. I think that is why he struggled to hold down a place at Spurs, why he struggled last season. Is a lack of adaptability due to a lack of intelligence or a lack of ability? Bent is good at getting into the right position at the right time, and he is goal scoring ability is very good.

I think I might have lost what the point I was originally trying to make 

[Alph]

34 minutes ago, rynny said:

If you look at the top 10 all time premier league top scorers, how many would be considered pacy strikers?

1. Alan Shearer

2.Wayne Rooney

3.Andy Cole

4. Frank Lampard

5. Thierry Henry

6.  Robbie Fowler

7. Michael Owen

8. Les Ferdinand

9. Teddy Sheringham

10. Robin van Persie

Henry and Owen? Even looking at the next 10 Defoe, Hasselbaink, Keane, Anelka, Yorke, Gerrard, Wright, Dublin, Heskey, Giggs, how many of those?

Even the best now (Aguero imo) is not a player to initiate a footrace. He's not a player interested in running a defender. 

People talk about Vardy like it's simple that he's too fast. Defenders hate him running at them. Worst nightmare. 

I bet they'd rather be charged with Vardy than Aguero. 

The speed Leicester serve Vardy is the key. The way they drop off and the launch plays into his strengths. Nothing to do with his pace alone.

Yet people talk like this is the way football should be played. You can't deal with it. 

Of course you can. Leicester played to their strengths but it's not impossible to defend. It's not the pace of Vardy but the pace set by the team in everything they do. 

You can't stick Vardy in any team and scare defenders. Aguero is a less fussy player. A scarier player. Far more complete and not interested in a race.

Yet we still get the same tired clichés.

 Football comes first. We always pick up on pace first though

[Carnero]

Thread Summary

-Some of the best players in the world have pace and some don't.

-Some fairly  decent players have pace and some don't.

-Some average players have pace and some don't.

-Some god awful players have pace and some don't.

[RamuelLJackson]

3 hours ago, Saul Pimpson said:

Thread Summary

-Some of the best players in the world have pace and some don't.

-Some fairly  decent players have pace and some don't.

-Some average players have pace and some don't.

-Some god awful players have pace and some don't.

-Different players are different.

[DCFC1388]

Sky Sports running a story on McCormack with Villa playing today...they showed a stat that only McCormack (66) and Rhodes (62) have scored more league goals in the Championship in the last 3 seasons than Martin (52) - how can anyone write him off? 

[RoyMac5]

9 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said:

Sky Sports running a story on McCormack with Villa playing today...they showed a stat that only McCormack (66) and Rhodes (62) have scored more league goals in the Championship in the last 3 seasons than Martin (52) - how can anyone write him off? 

But he's sooo mardy!

[Ted McMinn Football Genius]

15 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said:

Sky Sports running a story on McCormack with Villa playing today...they showed a stat that only McCormack (66) and Rhodes (62) have scored more league goals in the Championship in the last 3 seasons than Martin (52) - how can anyone write him off? 

Because he is one of our players and a lot of our fans are very much "the glassis half empty" sorts. 

Because there are players elsewhere (producing similar results to our top man)  they must be better than CM 

The half empty attitude was evident once again with all the sighs and the cheering off the pitch of BJ yesterday. 

Makes me ashamed to be in the stands when this is going on 

[Ninos]

His goals per minute played ratio is exceptionally poor. On a good day he has a nice touch, he dives to get free kicks most effectively, and he can link well with midfielders. That's the positives. He's benefitted over recent years from the high calibre midfield he's had with him. No pace, poor attitude, low workrate, never chases or wins balls, almost totally ineffective in the air, totally gets shut down versus quality defenses or top sides, or in key matches, and 1 on 1 he's about as bad as they come. If Pearson writes him off then that would be a good thing - but all that said Ince was so poor in the second half that Martin prob could have not done much worse. Hughes in there and Martin out of there are 2 preconditions for us getting out of this division. 

[TheDeadlySaul]

3 minutes ago, Ninos said:

His goals per minute played ratio is exceptionally poor. On a good day he has a nice touch, he dives to get free kicks most effectively, and he can link well with midfielders. That's the positives. He's benefitted over recent years from the high calibre midfield he's had with him. No pace, poor attitude, low workrate, never chases or wins balls, almost totally ineffective in the air, totally gets shut down versus quality defenses or top sides, or in key matches, and 1 on 1 he's about as bad as they come. If Pearson writes him off then that would be a good thing - but all that said Ince was so poor in the second half that Martin prob could have not done much worse. Hughes in there and Martin out of there are 2 preconditions for us getting out of this division. 

A goal every 2.3 games is a very good ratio

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, TheDeadlySaul said:

A goal every 2.3 games is a very good ratio

How many did he help create too? Defending at corners? Yeah but because he doesn't run down the wing, cross the ball to himself to head in he's crap!

[Ninos]

3 minutes ago, TheDeadlySaul said:

A goal every 2.3 games is a very good ratio

Take a look at goals per minute played for strikers in the championship this past season and see where he ranks. It's not so good. Assists is a different matter and that's prob where his strength lies - in his ability to link. 

[TheDeadlySaul]

11 minutes ago, Ninos said:

Take a look at goals per minute played for strikers in the championship this past season and see where he ranks. It's not so good. Assists is a different matter and that's prob where his strength lies - in his ability to link. 

His strengths are scoring goals and creating goals. What more do you want from a striker?