Eatonram Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, sage said: The opposition has started marking Keogh when we have deep possession and leaving Shackell free. It has happened in virtually all of our last 10 games. Exactly. Because they want the ball to go to Shacks bacause he cannot use it effectively. Jake can. Its a very close one overall. 52/48 just in Shacks favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, archied said: That's the best post I've seen on the subject , well balanced and thought out Your easily pleased. Shackell is getting a bad rap from Alpha and a lot of Derby fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Eatonram said: Exactly. Because they want the ball to go to Shacks bacause he cannot use it effectively. Jake can. Its a very close one overall. 52/48 just in Shacks favour. Jake this Jake that. I wouldn't trust him at all with his defending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, eddie said: The question is, what has he done with the real @Alpha? He's so calm now just like Shacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottingram Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 There's not much to be said that hasn't already been said. Shackell is the better defender, Buxton is a better passer. But Buxton can defend better than Shackell can pass. It really does depend on how you want your defenders to be, and personally I like to see Buxton spraying the ball around more than I like to see Shackell keeping a few more clean sheets a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, Alpha said: Don't like it that Shackell gets credit for how Keogh plays tbh. The worst of Keogh came when he had changes all around him. Christie, Shotton, Whitbread, Buxton, Raul, Forsyth, Thorne, Eustace and Mascarell. I'm sure Shackell's calm confidence has helped but Keogh and the coaches have probably done more for Keogh. On topic. It's a massive trade off. Shackell is abysmal in possession. I've never seen a player stop the ball dead so often. He invites pressure onto the team. We get squeezed in. Then when he does hit the pass the receiver has to wait 10 minutes for the ball to reach him. You can give Shackell 15 yards to step into and he ignores it. Olsson could have a huge spotlight follow him around and Shackell still wouldn't see him. But he's brilliant at defending. Stays on his feet, awesome awareness. Unbeatable in the air. The way he guides dribbling attackers is spot on. By far the best defender since... Shackell. I'd stick with Shackell. But he's massively frustrating. Looks like he's taking a free kick all the time How many times has shackells distribution resulted in us giving away a goal? I can't remember many ? He knows his limitations and plays the ball simple to players that have better distribution than him, that to me is a better quality than trying something that is beyond his abilities. There are not many players that can distribute the ball well with his defensive qualities....and those that are are in demand and cost a hefty price, hence why he playing with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 1 minute ago, nottingram said: There's not much to be said that hasn't already been said. Shackell is the better defender, Buxton is a better passer. But Buxton can defend better than Shackell can pass. It really does depend on how you want your defenders to be, and personally I like to see Buxton spraying the ball around more than I like to see Shackell keeping a few more clean sheets a season. Oh my goodness did you see Derbys defending against Forest after Shackell went off. We were under siege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinkletoes Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Fight - Buxton pissing match - Buxton beard growing - Buxton championship football - Shackell every single day of the week........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, curtains said: Thorne needs to pick the ball up then and get it going that's what he's there for. He gets pressed when Shackell has the ball. They let Shackell have the ball and press the midfield. If Shackell used the space in front of him or saw/hit passes earlier and faster then they'd lay off the midfield a bit more. Freeing Thorne. Thorne tries to help. But the deeper he drops to pick up the slow passing, the deeper everyone else drops. Then we're pressed even tighter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollycutts1982 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 No contest. Behave yourself you silly little boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottingram Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Just now, curtains said: Oh my goodness did you see Derbys defending against Forest after Shackell went off. We were under siege. Personally I think it's natural when Forest are throwing men forward to look under a bit of pressure. How many chances did they really have though? Zero with Shackell on the pitch and zero with Buxton there. Did you see Derby's defending and also their fast tempo football the season and a half that Buxton consistently partnered Keogh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 We can play all 3. Problem solved. Our weakest is the other wing position which neither Johnson,Russell,Weimann or Blackman have made their own so drop these players Carson Keogh Shackell Buxton Christie Thorne Olsson Bryson Butterfield Ince Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, Alpha said: He gets pressed when Shackell has the ball. They let Shackell have the ball and press the midfield. If Shackell used the space in front of him or saw/hit passes earlier and faster then they'd lay off the midfield a bit more. Freeing Thorne. Thorne tries to help. But the deeper he drops to pick up the slow passing, the deeper everyone else drops. Then we're pressed even tighter Seriously you need to watch what options Shackell and Keogh have other than long balls or Keogh breaking the line. Buxton is being done no favors by people wanting him to play ahead of Shackell . It would be a major mistake. Derbys midfield needs to give defenders options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 It is interesting that Bucko supporters explain in clear football terms their relative merits and conclude for the good of the team, that Bucko should start. Shackell fans just seem to be going Shackell's better nerrrrrrrrr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, nottingram said: Personally I think it's natural when Forest are throwing men forward to look under a bit of pressure. How many chances did they really have though? Zero with Shackell on the pitch and zero with Buxton there. Did you see Derby's defending and also their fast tempo football the season and a half that Buxton consistently partnered Keogh? Hughes was playing and Thorne was at his best. Options were available all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, McLovin said: We can play all 3. Problem solved. Our weakest is the other wing position which neither Johnson,Russell,Weimann or Blackman have made their own so drop these players Carson Keogh Shackell Buxton Christie Thorne Olsson Bryson Butterfield Ince Martin I like that line up, but can't see it being tried at this point of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottingram Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, curtains said: Hughes was playing and Thorne was at his best. Options were available all the time. Thorne played about ten games in this season and a half? I agree the midfield have to play their part but if you think Shackell is even close to Buxton in terms of distribution then we're not on the same planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 6 minutes ago, sage said: It is interesting that Bucko supporters explain in clear football terms their relative merits and conclude for the good of the team, that Bucko should start. Shackell fans just seem to be going Shackell's better nerrrrrrrrr Do you know what I'm tempted to want him to play and then say I told you so. But I want Derby promoted so the temptation is not worth the risk. But hey if it all goes wrong it's your fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 5 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said: How many times has shackells distribution resulted in us giving away a goal? I can't remember many ? He knows his limitations and plays the ball simple to players that have better distribution than him, that to me is a better quality than trying something that is beyond his abilities. There are not many players that can distribute the ball well with his defensive qualities....and those that are are in demand and cost a hefty price, hence why he playing with us. I never said he gives the ball away. I'm saying he causes others to be pressed. If I'm playing Derby I'm saying let Shackell have the ball. Step on the midfield. Glue to Thorne. Be ready to turn Keogh back. Shackell will ensure you have time to get your shape. When Keogh has the ball it's a bit more unpredictable. He can go pretty much anywhere. If you give him space he steps into it. If you go on Thorne, Thorne drops deeper and if you go, you go beyond Keogh. His passing isn't great but it's not awful. But do we want to take the chance that he won't hit Martin, Ince or even the far flank. He will open up his body and go to his RB. He will hit hard and early. You have to step off Derby when Keogh has the ball. You press on when Shackell has it. If Shackell was like Keogh then (well he'd be in the Premier League) you'd have to stand off Derby a bit more. Pressing would be very risky. It might pay off but what are you leaving behind you? Shackell gets us bogged down. But I'd still start him for his defensive qualities. But I find it hard to believe that he can't move the ball slightly quicker. And keep it rolling ffs. Don't let it die!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 6 minutes ago, sage said: It is interesting that Bucko supporters explain in clear football terms their relative merits and conclude for the good of the team, that Bucko should start. Shackell fans just seem to be going Shackell's better nerrrrrrrrr Just now, curtains said: Do you know what I'm tempted to want him to play and then say I told you so. But I want Derby promoted so the temptation is not worth the risk. Thank you for so eloquently proving my theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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