SaintRam Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Good points. I see Gray as a more out and out goalscorer than any of the Rams players even Bent and Martin Having said that you don't have to play with an out and out centre forward goalscorer as long as all the midfielders and wingers score loads of goals. Defenders should also chip in with goals .How many goals do you see Bent and Martin getting this season. I'm really not sure. I don't think Martin is going to be the cornerstone he was last season. But I do think we're going to score more goals as a team. Not sure how many minutes Bent will play either, but then he's a positional player so he only needs a half chance to score.If I had to predict, I'd say they'll both get a number in the teens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 I'm really not sure. I don't think Martin is going to be the cornerstone he was last season. But I do think we're going to score more goals as a team. Not sure how many minutes Bent will play either, but then he's a positional player so he only needs a half chance to score.If I had to predict, I'd say they'll both get a number in the teens.Thanks for that but I think your a bit optimistic but time will tell. End of the day it's about opinions and I suppose the manager will assess our goalscoring prowess as a team .As for me well I'd buy Gray just as I wanted to buy Shackell for the spine of the team. I mean we now have an abundance of CBs but not of CFs. But Shackell was a vital cog in the wheel just as I would see Gray as that IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Russell ,Dawkins ,Ince and Wiemann are not out and out Centre Forwards are they. Would you put them there ahead of Martin and Bent .The answer is clearly no for me Both of these guys are Strikers who have been played 'out of position' previously (or are very strong in their 'secondary' position if you like)I would consider Martin and Bent to be our best Strikers... So no I wouldn't play the others ahead of them... equally I wouldn't play Gray ahead of them either!I see Gray as a more out and out goalscorer than any of the Rams players even Bent and Martin I'm not sure where the evidence is for this? Martin's goalscoring record over the last 2 years is pretty darn good... Bent's in the half season we had him was very good... Ince has a better scoring rate at this level than Gray does... Not sure how you justify that statement to be honest... especially since Martin (for one) scored more goal in less games than Gray in a team which finished higher in the league than us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Thanks for that but I think your a bit optimistic but time will tell. End of the day it's about opinions and I suppose the manager will assess our goalscoring prowess as a team .As for me well I'd buy Gray just as I wanted to buy Shackell for the spine of the team. I mean we now have an abundance of CBs but not of CFs. But Shackell was a vital cog in the wheel just as I would see Gray as that IMO. I think knowing that we needed a new defender was obvious. Knowing whether we need a new forward is not, and I think we'll see movement in the market before the transfer window closes IF we struggle to score goals in our few opening games. We have what? 5 league games before the window shuts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Both of these guys are Strikers who have been played 'out of position' previously (or are very strong in their 'secondary' position if you like)I would consider Martin and Bent to be our best Strikers... So no I wouldn't play the others ahead of them... equally I wouldn't play Gray ahead of them either!I'm not sure where the evidence is for this? Martin's goalscoring record over the last 2 years is pretty darn good... Bent's in the half season we had him was very good... Ince has a better scoring rate at this level than Gray does... Not sure how you justify that statement to be honest... especially since Martin (for one) scored more goal in less games than Gray in a team which finished higher in the league than us...Interesting to know Martin and Bent and Gray penalty counts. As Saint says let's look at the first 5 games as I'm still unsure where our goals will come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Interesting to know Martin and Bent and Gray penalty counts. As Saint says let's look at the first 5 games Not sure... Looks like he had one good season in the conference at one point though...I'm still a little unsure of how you classify him as a better goalscorer than Bent or Martin though... Just cos the evidence doesn't seem to support that...Would be happy for you to back up your statements with some facts though if you have any?Whoscored.com is really useful I think so just a quick one:Chris Martin Mins: 2825, Goals: 18, Shots per Game: 2.4, Overall Rating: 7.24Andre Gray Mins: 3670, Goals: 17, Shots per Game: 2.3, Overall Rating: 6.67Sorry... don't buy him as being better than Martin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal is a Ram Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Not sure... Looks like he had one good season in the conference at one point though...I'm still a little unsure of how you classify him as a better goalscorer than Bent or Martin though... Just cos the evidence doesn't seem to support that...Would be happy for you to back up your statements with some facts though if you have any?Whoscored.com is really useful I think so just a quick one:Chris Martin Mins: 2825, Goals: 18, Shots per Game: 2.4, Overall Rating: 7.24Andre Gray Mins: 3670, Goals: 17, Shots per Game: 2.3, Overall Rating: 6.67Sorry... don't buy him as being better than Martin...9 games more and one goal less.. Quite impressive. No wonder we were 'asking for £10m when Swansea asked'.Although if Rhodes is not going for anything under £14m, what price now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Not sure... Looks like he had one good season in the conference at one point though...I'm still a little unsure of how you classify him as a better goalscorer than Bent or Martin though... Just cos the evidence doesn't seem to support that...Would be happy for you to back up your statements with some facts though if you have any?Whoscored.com is really useful I think so just a quick one:Chris Martin Mins: 2825, Goals: 18, Shots per Game: 2.4, Overall Rating: 7.24Andre Gray Mins: 3670, Goals: 17, Shots per Game: 2.3, Overall Rating: 6.67Sorry... don't buy him as being better than Martin...Not saying he's better than a fit Martin but could supplement our goal scoring prowess. It's difficult to go for promotion with just 1 out and out CF. Bent is a different type of player as he plays on the last man and needs the ball in behind. I think Gray and Martin are equal to be honest as similar CFs ie strong hold up players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal is a Ram Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 At the moment, I see it as this:With Martin and Bent fit, we may play the 4-2-3-1 (see vs. Burton) or somesuch variant with one up top.Should Martin go down with an injury, I think we'd see us go to two up front, with one of Russell, or Weimann pairing up with Bent. If Bent is injured, but Martin is fit, I think we'd stick to one up front.We'd probably look to the loan market if said injuries were long-term enough for us to worry - but that's not likely to happen until at least the time when those in Europe have to release their 25-man squads for the Chumps League.All a bit mystic Meg though, just goes to show how relatively little we know about how we will play this season! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 9 games more and one goal less.. Quite impressive. No wonder we were 'asking for £10m when Swansea asked'.Although if Rhodes is not going for anything under £14m, what price now?Yeh... Whilst I think players are worth whatever people are willing to pay... in the current market we'd HAVE to ask at least £10m for Martin...Mad that Rhodes = £14m = Dzeko thoughI think Gray and Martin are equal to be honest as similar CFs Interesting... And I'm not going to dispute your right to an opinion on it... but the stats don't back that up...Whoscored.com (great source as it's all based off OPTA stats) lists under Gray's 'Weaknesses' his lack of ability to hold onto the ball... It suggests that his 'style of play' is that he likes dribbling...Martin on the other hand has strengths in 'Finishing' and 'Holding up the ball'...I don't think they are the same kind of player... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 At the moment, I see it as this:With Martin and Bent fit, we may play the 4-2-3-1 (see vs. Burton) or somesuch variant with one up top.Should Martin go down with an injury, I think we'd see us go to two up front, with one of Russell, or Weimann pairing up with Bent. If Bent is injured, but Martin is fit, I think we'd stick to one up front.We'd probably look to the loan market if said injuries were long-term enough for us to worry - but that's not likely to happen until at least the time when those in Europe have to release their 25-man squads for the Chumps League.All a bit mystic Meg though, just goes to show how relatively little we know about how we will play this season!We will only be playing with 2DMs in away games. No way will we line up like that at home unless we have some injury issues. 4-3-3 at home most likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Yeh... Whilst I think players are worth whatever people are willing to pay... in the current market we'd HAVE to ask at least £10m for Martin...Mad that Rhodes = £14m = Dzeko thoughInteresting... And I'm not going to dispute your right to an opinion on it... but the stats don't back that up...Whoscored.com (great source as it's all based off OPTA stats) lists under Gray's 'Weaknesses' his lack of ability to hold onto the ball... It suggests that his 'style of play' is that he likes dribbling...Martin on the other hand has strengths in 'Finishing' and 'Holding up the ball'...I don't think they are the same kind of player... Fair enough but I still want him at Derby. But your posts are very convincing. Hope your right about the goal scoring ability of Derbys squad because I fear Hull will be a big threat if they get Gray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 The brilliant thing about Clement is that any opposing manager will only have the 30 minutes before kickoff to work out what to do with Clement' formation, which he may change in the game. He will already have handed in his team sheet, so he cannot change his team to suit Clement's team.This has always been the case but Clent can vary things much more than Maclaren ever did.The Swansea manager was on Sky sports today and he was saying that last season, Swansea were better because they had different formations that they could play and even change it during the match. This was music to my ears and it makes the Maclaren 4-3-3 every week now look very dated.Considering how highly rated Maclaren is, it makes you wonder if he will play 4-3-3 with his Newcastle side every week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Fair enough but I still want him at Derby. But your posts are very convincing. Hope your right about the goal scoring ability of Derbys squad because I fear Hull will be a big threat if they get Gray. I think Hull are gonna be strong anyway...I just think £8m is way too much to spend on a forward who's not as good as we already have... £3m for a backup striker yeah maybe... But £8m? Not worth it... Also bear in mind that Gestede just cost Villa a reported £6m... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 I think Hull are gonna be strong anyway...I just think £8m is way too much to spend on a forward who's not as good as we already have... £3m for a backup striker yeah maybe... But £8m? Not worth it... Also bear in mind that Gestede just cost Villa a reported £6m... What on Earth has Ince's transfer done to people's heads?! £3 million would be our 2nd biggest transfer since being in the Premier League last time out, and around the 5th biggest since the time previous. Spending that on a "backup striker" would be somewhere between bizarre and outright madness. Personally, I'd saying signing any strikers for anything more than ~£500k-£750k range at this point would be utter madness, when we have the £15m+ rateable Martin (based on the talk of Rhodes' transfer), Darren Bent, Andres Weimann and Johnny Russell all with a look in before we even get to the development squad and youngsters like Bennett and Thomas. £4-5m on a winger of stunning quality to compliment the side, maybe, but £8 million on some mediocre striker "for backup" would be up there with just burning Pride Park down "for a giggle" at this point. It might be spectacular for everyone to watch, but when we have to deal with what we have after, I certainly wouldn't want to be in charge. Again, I honestly doubt there is anything, at all, in any of this speculation at this point. There may well be some big signing coming, who knows what's going on behind the scenes, but it's not going to be for some mediocre striker who might just be able to play out wide "for options". Edit: Just to clarify, I would not like to watch Pride Park burn for a giggle, but rather it was simply something that would be a spectacularly stupid way of making a spectacle to gain interest, at the massive cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 What on Earth has Ince's transfer done to people's heads?! £3 million would be our 2nd biggest transfer since being in the Premier League last time out, and around the 5th biggest since the time previous. Spending that on a "backup striker" would be somewhere between bizarre and outright madness. I'm not saying we SHOULD... But that IF we spent £3m on a backup striker I wouldn't be outraged... I'd judge it based on the quality of the player... bear in mind that to be a backup forward in our squad now you have to be REALLY good anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsdubs Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Andre Gray missed so many chances at the Ipro I'd rather we pass. Plus we need a strong hold up man, we have enough fast forwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srg Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 I think we need to debate a player we aren't interested in some more... let's see if we can get this to 100 pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsall_Ram Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted McMinn Football Genius Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 And at that sort of money they can have them. Way too much IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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