Can you pin point it?

[Derbados]

The problem with our back 4? I've never seen anything like it before, at one point this season we were picking up clean sheet after clean sheet, the next, players are literally passing it 5 yards to an opposition players feet, when he's right in front of them. Even Mac yesterday just held his hands up and said he didn't know what the issue was, neither do I? how can players such as Christie look like PL league players at the start of the season and the next look literally like a Sunday league amateur, I mean holy crap, he's god awful at the minute! like he's never played a game in his life! I just can't pinpoint what the exact issue is, looking back over yesterday's goals Hudderield scored, the defending was abysmal, you wouldn't even get away with it in league 2 let alone the championship. I'd hate to be Mac right now, how does he address it? what else can he do? No matter what back four he seems to put out, they just cannot seem to be able to do their jobs? Does he go for an entirely new back 4 in the summer provided we're still in the championship? If I was Mac, I'd be bloody tempted!

[eddie]

Yep.

Absence of the best pure defender in the club, Jake Buxton.

[Derbados]

Yep.

Absence of the best pure defender in the club, Jake Buxton.

Could be Eddie, I just can't fathom it, at one point I literally thought they must be throwing games because they were unhappy with mcclaren.

[Lord_Ram]

Yep.

Absence of the best pure defender in the club, Jake Buxton.

​this, i think its become massively obvious that we need an experienced head, whitbread kept it solid yesterday, and our defence was class when he was in there

what id do is say f*ck it, no matter what i do i cant stop us from conceding, well just have to score more

[RamFan13]

Jake Buxton.

[Derbados]

​this, i think its become massively obvious that we need an experienced head, whitbread kept it solid yesterday, and our defence was class when he was in there

what id do is say f*ck it, no matter what i do i cant stop us from conceding, well just have to score more

Thing is though would you not class Keogh as an experienced head? arguably more experienced than Bucko? I personally don't think he's captain material one bit. He's not a natural leader and I think he needs to be able not to worry about being captain, but doing his bloody job, and more importantly, the basics of defending! as do the the rest of the back four!

[YorkshireRam]

I think the problem with the defence lies in midfield.

Due to the change of system, the role of the back 4 has changed somewhat. When playing with a CDM, the back 4 was screened and much of the play coming through the middle was forced onto the wings or forced backwards, by which point, covering players had time to return to their positions.

Without that CDM, the defence is being exposed to a lot more direct play from the opposition and simply put, they don't know how to cope!

Just take Huddersfield's 1st goal yesterday, despite all the lovely build up play, the goal was created by a simple, lofted ball into the box. Gobern then had time to take it down, turn and smash it home. A poor goal to concede but with a CDM that chance wouldn't have reached Gobern as Thorne/ Eustace would have shut down Coady before he had the time to chip the ball into the box.

I think it's been a big reality check for both fans and players and the realisation that quite a few of our defenders are simply not good enough!

[Curtains]

No DM is the problem and no hold up CF 

In other words we need Thorne and Martin back  

Buxton would also be a real bonus. 

[deano180]

I think the problem with the defence lies in midfield.

Due to the change of system, the role of the back 4 has changed somewhat. When playing with a CDM, the back 4 was screened and much of the play coming through the middle was forced onto the wings or forced backwards, by which point, covering players had time to return to their positions.

Without that CDM, the defence is being exposed to a lot more direct play from the opposition and simply put, they don't know how to cope!

Just take Huddersfield's 1st goal yesterday, despite all the lovely build up play, the goal was created by a simple, lofted ball into the box. Gobern then had time to take it down, turn and smash it home. A poor goal to concede but with a CDM that chance wouldn't have reached Gobern as Thorne/ Eustace would have shut down Coady before he had the time to chip the ball into the box.

I think it's been a big reality check for both fans and players and the realisation that quite a few of our defenders are simply not good enough!

This

Been saying for the last few weeks need to play our usual system, get Hanson in

[YorkshireRam]

This

Been saying for the last few weeks need to play our usual system, get Hanson in

​I agree, Hanson didn't do a lot wrong when he played. Looked enthusiastic and won plenty of 50/50s. 

The 433 suits our players a lot better as it helps us retain possession and dictate the play a little bit more. The only issue is playing Darren Bent as a target man but considering the advantages of the system I'd take that risk! 

[Ramos]

Honestly, its just completely puzzling and who do you blame? Do we blame the coaching? Well they can coach attributes, they can coach organisation and they can drill into the players the need to concentrate. But what can the coaching staff do about players continually giving the ball straight to opposition players? I'm sure they have been told numerous times since they were about 10 to make sure you pass the ball to our own players! 

Then people think are they playing badly because they don't want to play for McClaren because he's leaving? Well the attack certainly seems to want to play for McClaren, we create chances and we still score goals as seen yesterday so what the defence doesn't want to play for him anymore but the attack does? Maybe he's said when he leaves he will take the whole attacking part of our team and then laughed at our defenders, unlikely. 

Is it just confidence? In particular christie has gone from a marauding right back who used to beat his man and put across in time after time and was always quite solid into a player who now dallys on the ball, looks scared to run with it and gives it away so easily. Forsyth I think is very solid and one of the best LB in the league but he has looked out of confidence in recent weeks, giving the ball away as badly as Christie, he's been rightly taken out of the lime light and hope he comes back stronger, as warnock must be a short term solution rather than long term. Grant as well seems to be making more notably simple mistakes (Wolves, rotherham, yesterday) than he has at any time since he came back. He had a really strong end to last season and strong start to this season. We cannot deny that some of his saves have saved us this season and he's been superb for the most part but maybe he's another player low in confidence and a goalkeeper with low confidence does not reassure the backline and may also cause nerves in them.

This just then leaves the question are they good enough? I'd have to say no, most of them do not appear to be good enough, it doesn't appear to be a bad run it just seems that there are too many defenders in the back line who make mistakes far too often and there is no one for them to turn to. Its not like we have 3 solid defenders then one who is slightly unreliable, that defender would probably improve with better players around him. But they all seem to be a liability and they all must feel under a lot of pressure because they know they are all capable at any moment of producing a mistake. Therefore they must not have any confidence in each other and surely they will struggle to find good chemistry to make them solid.  I think Keogh trys his best to lead the back line, and I believe he is a good defender, but he needs a top championship centre back alongside him, and also needs strong full backs *cough Wisdom. 

So if we stay down or go up, the defence needs completely refreshing, the fringe players like tom naylor, lee naylor and mark o brien will leave. Whitbread and barker I am sure will go and I wouldn't be surprised if Keogh or buxton leaves. Albentosa needs more time and lets just all hope he develops into a top centre half. Lets wait 10 games into next season before we judge him.  We almost certainly need a new out and out right back *cough wisdom to give christie proper competition rather than keep moving shotton in and out. Then we have to sign a really good centre back with a good pedigree for which ever league we end up in. Hopefully Rawson, Lowe and Hanson will also be more involved in pre season and we may get glimpses of them next season.

If we go up, we probably need about four or five new defenders, we stay down, we need two or three I think and to blood a few youngsters. But lets just hope the players get some confidence back, because whether they are good enough or not, low confidence really isn't going to help.

 

[ben_dcfc]

Jake Buxton.

​In Buxton's last 4 starts we conceded 9 goals. We may miss him but he was part of the problem at the start of our defensive difficulties.

 

 

[Mostyn6]

we can skirt around it and blame it on other things as much as we like, but the truth will always be that fear and lack of confidence has ruined our season.

A certain player being out injured does not suddenly make a different player become inept. What does however affect a player is when a South Stand loudmouth comes up to him in a pub, following a win, to tell him he's rubbish! Or when twenty fans on row AA in the East Stand lean forward to tell you that you're **** as you go to take a throw in when the team is winning!

Hardly any of our goals that we conceded have not been down to an error in recent weeks.

Confidence fuels concentration and decision making. Fear fuels hesitation and poor decision making.

End of.

 

[ramblur]

I still wonder about stamina levels.If conditioning had been undercooked pre season,then it would start to really hurt at the back end of the season (and probably show the odd sign earlier on).Tiredness also results in mental fatigue - I find it interesting that Fozzy seemed to be prone to this,and he'd played a lot of games prior to exclusion (Keogh,as well, has played a lot of games).However,the most interesting one for me is Jeff Hendrick,a large unit playing in a demanding midfield role.It's always seemed to me that smaller people tend to have greater natural stamina levels,so,by extension, I guess that the larger models benefit from more conditioning.Most seem to think that Jeff isn't the player he was last year,and indeed most think we aren't the team we were last year.

Although we scored 4 yesterday,I note some have remarked that Huddersfield seemed to have played with more energy.Again,we scored 4 against Blackpool,but lots seemed to compare this game to a training session.How will we perform if and when we again come up against the better sides? I think both Watford and Brentford gave us a bit of a run around recently.

If Mac's scratching his head,maybe he should look outside the box?

The other thing that occurs to me is that if (and I didn't know this) we have a continental fitness guru,does he have experience of the rigours of the Championship,or was he appointed on the basis of results achieved abroad,where the game would be less physically demanding? Unfortunately you only have one go at this,as it can't be corrected now (if undercooked).

I'm not saying this was the case,merely putting forward a possibility. 

[Tombo]

I still wonder about stamina levels.If conditioning had been undercooked pre season,then it would start to really hurt at the back end of the season (and probably show the odd sign earlier on).Tiredness also results in mental fatigue - I find it interesting that Fozzy seemed to be prone to this,and he'd played a lot of games prior to exclusion (Keogh,as well, has played a lot of games).However,the most interesting one for me is Jeff Hendrick,a large unit playing in a demanding midfield role.It's always seemed to me that smaller people tend to have greater natural stamina levels,so,by extension, I guess that the larger models benefit from more conditioning.Most seem to think that Jeff isn't the player he was last year,and indeed most think we aren't the team we were last year.

Although we scored 4 yesterday,I note some have remarked that Huddersfield seemed to have played with more energy.Again,we scored 4 against Blackpool,but lots seemed to compare this game to a training session.How will we perform if and when we again come up against the better sides? I think both Watford and Brentford gave us a bit of a run around recently.

If Mac's scratching his head,maybe he should look outside the box?

The other thing that occurs to me is that if (and I didn't know this) we have a continental fitness guru,does he have experience of the rigours of the Championship,or was he appointed on the basis of results achieved abroad,where the game would be less physically demanding? Unfortunately you only have one go at this,as it can't be corrected now (if undercooked).

I'm not saying this was the case,merely putting forward a possibility. 

​They worked them to the bone in preseason. Possibly overcooked if anything. Just look at the injuries and that'll tell you we've overtrained and overworked them.

[Van der MoodHoover]

I still wonder about stamina levels.If conditioning had been undercooked pre season,then it would start to really hurt at the back end of the season (and probably show the odd sign earlier on).Tiredness also results in mental fatigue - I find it interesting that Fozzy seemed to be prone to this,and he'd played a lot of games prior to exclusion (Keogh,as well, has played a lot of games).However,the most interesting one for me is Jeff Hendrick,a large unit playing in a demanding midfield role.It's always seemed to me that smaller people tend to have greater natural stamina levels,so,by extension, I guess that the larger models benefit from more conditioning.Most seem to think that Jeff isn't the player he was last year,and indeed most think we aren't the team we were last year.

Although we scored 4 yesterday,I note some have remarked that Huddersfield seemed to have played with more energy.Again,we scored 4 against Blackpool,but lots seemed to compare this game to a training session.How will we perform if and when we again come up against the better sides? I think both Watford and Brentford gave us a bit of a run around recently.

If Mac's scratching his head,maybe he should look outside the box?

The other thing that occurs to me is that if (and I didn't know this) we have a continental fitness guru,does he have experience of the rigours of the Championship,or was he appointed on the basis of results achieved abroad,where the game would be less physically demanding? Unfortunately you only have one go at this,as it can't be corrected now (if undercooked).

I'm not saying this was the case,merely putting forward a possibility. 

​didn't jeff have some weeks out last season with injury (following yeovil away?) maybe i'm mixing up my seasons (easily done with the sunday lunch glass of wine) but is it possible that a number of our lads just cannot "do" a whole season without a stretch of a few weeks

[ramblur]

​They worked them to the bone in preseason. Possibly overcooked if anything. Just look at the injuries and that'll tell you we've overtrained and overworked them.

​I distinctly remember it being said that we did more ball work a lot earlier than in previous years,which obviously means that the slog up hills etc must have been curtailed.The players said it had been different and enjoyable pre season. Now if I were a player I'd much rather be kicking a ball around than slogging up hills,but it wouldn't mean it was doing me good ,long term.

A lack of proper conditioning would make you more likely to pick up injuries,rather than the position you put forward.

When you do a hard slog pre season ,you've put good stamina levels into the tank,and then have plenty of time to recover before the season starts.During the season you can then concentrate on the ball work in training,in the knowledge that good stamina levels have already been put in place. 

 

[ramblur]

​didn't jeff have some weeks out last season with injury (following yeovil away?) maybe i'm mixing up my seasons (easily done with the sunday lunch glass of wine) but is it possible that a number of our lads just cannot "do" a whole season without a stretch of a few weeks

​I think he's had his injury 'rests' this season as well.It's the energy levels in both seasons,when actually playing,that I'm comparing.

[Rambalin]

Fitness is not a issue it comes down purely to quality and not having the  speed of thought react to situations.Last season we had Wisdom who was high quality and a defensive midfielder who gave them added time to think.Without them panic sets in.

Our run of clean sheets contained a fair mixture of luck and at the time Grant playing at the top of his game.We were giving up chances in those games but the opposition was not taking them right now everything goes in.

Raul I think is going to be a good player for us but right now with what is happening and his lack of English it must be like walking onto a set of a horror movie.

I read someone said earlier that Wisdom would provide competition for Christie where has in fact he would not simply because the place would be his has he is a different class.In fact remember he really  mostly has been a central defender hell he would be a major asset right now.

All we can do is get into the playoffs hope someone nails the CD place because talking to other teams fans  who could be in it with us they fear us going forward.That includes my boro fan friend who reckons they caught us at just the right times.

 

[eddie]

So there you have it - one poster suggesting that the training was rubbish because the players might have been undercooked, and one poster suggesting that the training was rubbish because the players might have been overcooked.

That's perfectly acceptable, and is in keeping with Mostyn's "Glass half full or glass half empty?" thread which scored 46 each after 92 votes.

Usually, in such circumstances, the middle ground is the most likely because it requires fewer assumptions (for those who want to know more, look up "Occam's Razor"). Just retain the common factors and eliminate the ones which only appear in one alternative, especially when the other alternative is diametrically opposite.

In other words, the training was rubbish because the players were neither undercooked nor overcooked.

Sorted.