dabber Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 We have much more success against teams that give it a go and we "pick em off" on the counter. Where we have struggled is against teams that "park the bus" and we haven't had the guile to break them down. My glass half empty outlook is that more and more teams will have cottoned on to that and it will be a frustrating time for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tombo Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 We have much more success against teams that give it a go and we "pick em off" on the counter. Where we have struggled is against teams that "park the bus" and we haven't had the guile to break them down. My glass half empty outlook is that more and more teams will have cottoned on to that and it will be a frustrating time for us. This is why McClaren has been banging on about fitness. We have to be in top shape to run around teams. It's what we do best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 3-5-2 is a good shout, looked good at the WC and I think Van Gaal has used it in friendlies with United. 4-2-3-1 could work as you can pair an experianced Eustace with someone like Hughes, Hendrick or Hanson giving them a bit more freedom and giving more energy to the defensive midfield position were it just with Eustace. 4-2-2-2 if we wanted to play with two strikers againI tend to get a bit annoyed when people get too into naming formations.A 4-4-2 with a deep striker can easily be called a 4-4-1-1.A 4-4-2 with a deep striker and the widemen given freedom to attack and cut in is a 4-2-3-1.A 4-3-3 where the defensive midfielder drops basically into defense to give the fullbacks a chance to be more like wingbacks, and the centerforward is played more as a "false 9" is essentially a 3-5-2 or a 3-4-1-2, as well as a 3-2-2-3, 3-2-2-1-2, 3-4-3, 5-2-1-2, 5-2-3 and a 4-1-2-1-2.It's all just diddling about on paper, actual tactics and formations are really quite complicated. The difference between the 4-3-3 we played under McClaren and the one we saw under Nigel is staggering. We've all seen two teams line up as "4-3-3" and end up being not just entirely different shapes, but entirely different in pretty much everything they do.The real tactical question we face now is how the defensive midfielder will play. What is the more vital role for that role, is it to offer the attacking side (the quality of distribution) or the defensive (positioning and breaking up play)? Eustace can more than do the defensive side, and he might be getting on a bit, but that's what he can do for us. What we'd ideally want is someone who could do both, but at this time we seem to lack that options. Coutts could be a more defensive option than Hughes or Hendrick and give it a go, but that's yet to be seen. Hanson at this time is an unknown quality, but you never know what might happen this season.The other key of course is strength in depth and without Thorne we've lost a lot of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tombo Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 I tend to get a bit annoyed when people get too into naming formations. A 4-4-2 with a deep striker can easily be called a 4-4-1-1. A 4-4-2 with a deep striker and the widemen given freedom to attack and cut in is a 4-2-3-1. A 4-3-3 where the defensive midfielder drops basically into defense to give the fullbacks a chance to be more like wingbacks, and the centerforward is played more as a "false 9" is essentially a 3-5-2 or a 3-4-1-2, as well as a 3-2-2-3, 3-2-2-1-2, 3-4-3, 5-2-1-2, 5-2-3 and a 4-1-2-1-2. It's all just diddling about on paper, actual tactics and formations are really quite complicated. The difference between the 4-3-3 we played under McClaren and the one we saw under Nigel is staggering. We've all seen two teams line up as "4-3-3" and end up being not just entirely different shapes, but entirely different in pretty much everything they do. The real tactical question we face now is how the defensive midfielder will play. What is the more vital role for that role, is it to offer the attacking side (the quality of distribution) or the defensive (positioning and breaking up play)? Eustace can more than do the defensive side, and he might be getting on a bit, but that's what he can do for us. What we'd ideally want is someone who could do both, but at this time we seem to lack that options. Coutts could be a more defensive option than Hughes or Hendrick and give it a go, but that's yet to be seen. Hanson at this time is an unknown quality, but you never know what might happen this season. The other key of course is strength in depth and without Thorne we've lost a lot of that. You're right about naming formations being a bit pointless at times. Arguably, we were playing 4-1-4-1 in the Playoff Final. Grant Wisdom Keogh Buxton Forsyth Thorne Ward Hughes Hendrick Russell Martin I prefer to call it 4-3-3, but there's a case to be made for 4-1-4-1. Or even if Russell tucks in it's a 4-1-3-2. It's about personnel more than anything else and if your chosen 11 have the desired balance between attack and defense. And then the attributes and tendencies of those players to do certain things being reflective of the style. For example, if he had played Bryson in the Final, we'd have been a bit slower and more patient in possession (which incidentally wouldn't have done us any favours imo) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCFC_17 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I tend to get a bit annoyed when people get too into naming formations. A 4-4-2 with a deep striker can easily be called a 4-4-1-1. A 4-4-2 with a deep striker and the widemen given freedom to attack and cut in is a 4-2-3-1. A 4-3-3 where the defensive midfielder drops basically into defense to give the fullbacks a chance to be more like wingbacks, and the centerforward is played more as a "false 9" is essentially a 3-5-2 or a 3-4-1-2, as well as a 3-2-2-3, 3-2-2-1-2, 3-4-3, 5-2-1-2, 5-2-3 and a 4-1-2-1-2. It's all just diddling about on paper, actual tactics and formations are really quite complicated. The difference between the 4-3-3 we played under McClaren and the one we saw under Nigel is staggering. We've all seen two teams line up as "4-3-3" and end up being not just entirely different shapes, but entirely different in pretty much everything they do. The real tactical question we face now is how the defensive midfielder will play. What is the more vital role for that role, is it to offer the attacking side (the quality of distribution) or the defensive (positioning and breaking up play)? Eustace can more than do the defensive side, and he might be getting on a bit, but that's what he can do for us. What we'd ideally want is someone who could do both, but at this time we seem to lack that options. Coutts could be a more defensive option than Hughes or Hendrick and give it a go, but that's yet to be seen. Hanson at this time is an unknown quality, but you never know what might happen this season. The other key of course is strength in depth and without Thorne we've lost a lot of that. why are people knocking hughes' defensive abilities? I thought you were the stat guy albert? Hughes is the biggest tackler in the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srg Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 He's not a physical presence and he's not a defensive minded player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 why are people knocking hughes' defensive abilities? I thought you were the stat guy albert? Hughes is the biggest tackler in the team.He is one of the better tacklers, but he's not suited to sitting back and defending, which is part of the role. Not only would it waste his attacking talents somewhat, but it's not something that has seemed all that natural for him to do. Who knows though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaftesbury Street Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Formations are just numbers anyway. For example, somebody poo-poid the 352 suggestion. When we're attacking, the full backs bomb forward, Martin drops deep and plays behind the wingers, who by this point have tucked in and the DM has joined the defence. Guess what formation that is! I also noticed that whenever Hendrick played he would drop deep alongside Thorne whenever we were looking to build an attack. Bryson would then play slightly more centrally until the attack had been initiated. 4411 is that not? Our formation constantly changes throughout phases of play anyway. So there's not much point trying to pin one down. Exactly and people seem to forget that when Forsyth bombed forward, Wisdom sat back creating a back line of 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i-Ram Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 He is one of the better tacklers, but he's not suited to sitting back and defending, which is part of the role. Not only would it waste his attacking talents somewhat, but it's not something that has seemed all that natural for him to do. Who knows though. Unfortunately I don't see enough games to have a strong opinion on this, but two key attributes of a CDM (in addition to tackling and passing which young Will scores highly on IMO) are positional sense (or if you like reading the game) and communication skills, in particular with the centre backs. It often appears to me that the team as a whole can be quiet in respect of barking out some orders, and whilst I personally think it would benefit Will's development and be beneficial to the club in the long term for him to undertake the role as first choice until GT is back, I am a bit unsure whether this is where his age/game time may be factor that counts against him. It also comes back perhaps to the concern expressed by others many times before, but should be particularly considered if Will actually is selected to be our temp CDM, but are our two current centre backs tight enough as a unit to overcome some understandable errors that Will might make in what has become a very specialised and pivotal role for all counter attacking teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 4-3-3 worked perfectly well for us when Thorne wasn't in the side last season. We have our identity and we should stick to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 We have more depth in the development squad, extra pacey options in Santos and such, as well as Christie who looks very promising. Christie will give us something different at rightback too.We also have a season of experience in the team and will go at it from the start, rather than already into the season. Albert - the back up doesn't to me give you the strength to sustain a promotion challenge IMO. We can talk about the long term potential which is looking very healthy, but the now and present, the run up to Christmas I am concerned about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmericanRam Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I trust SM to use what he sees fit.We like to counter attack and I dont see that changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Albert - the back up doesn't to me give you the strength to sustain a promotion challenge IMO. We can talk about the long term potential which is looking very healthy, but the now and present, the run up to Christmas I am concerned about.Having a strong starting XI wins you a match, having a strong squad wins you a league. The difference so far between this year and last year is a bit of depth and Christie playing at right back. Who knows what'll happen, but at this point there's no reason to be overly worried, you never know what the club still have in store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmericanRam Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Overall,I am very confident about this season.I am especially eager to see what Christie can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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