How things (don't) change

[sage]

the fact here is the bit where I say "You know as well as I do that..."

It is your opinion that I 'know' as well as you do 

 

Again, look in the dictionary

 

If I 'knew' as well as you do, I'd be a worried man indeed. 

[ariotofmyown]

I was just looking down all my bookmarks on t'interwebs and found a link to an old article I wrote on BBC 606, and was astounded at how relevant what I wrote in August 2010 is right now, over 3 years later.

------------------------

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A72752015

---------------------

Here's what I wrote:- AUGUST 09, 2010

Having thoroughly enjoyed the win over Leeds on Saturday, I have to say that it was brilliant to see Derby attacking in waves of three players.

I was cautious that Derby might not transfer the positive play from friendlies into competitive league football, but I have to say the attacking performance was better against Leeds than against (Premier League) friendly opponents Stoke and Birmingham.

The quite barmy thing for me is that there is loads of room for improvement and if that was the 6th game in and the players were all sharp and match fit, the score could've been a lot more convincing.

In five games time, Commons hits the targets after a couple of minutes. In five games time, Green strokes the ball into the bottom corner instead of the keeper's throat. In five games time Barker slams the ball into the top of the net and not along the floor. In five games time, the advancing midfielders dont run beyond the path of the ball in the area!

I said before the game that it could be 5-0 to either side and anything in between, and I feel I wasnt too far wrong.

IN a few games time, Bailey and Cywka get more involved and Savage, Anderson and Leacock are more decisive. These improvements should come naturally with match fitness and sharpness.

In the debate recently about formations, I was quite convinced that the formation was largely irrelevent if the philosophy was negative.

As on opening day last season, I applaud everyone involved for the positive manner in which Derby performed, and I'm convinced that Derby will create a lot of luck IF they continue with a positive mindset.

I've been critical of Clough and the coaching last season, and I think that was justified, but make no mistake, I'd rather be complimentary to him and I'm probably more desperate for him to succeed as manager than any previous manager.

If anyone speaks to Clough, tell him to stay positive and play to win. If he reverts back to trying not to lose instead of trying to win, we'll revert back to being a poor side.

Well done Derby.

Up the Rams

-----------------------

although the names of players have changed, little else has

Well done. Now go back and read to the Eustace transfer thread from the Summer too.

[LeedsCityRam]

Simply by seeing the difference in players like Leacock going from a specialised defensive coach to firstly Jewell and his mates, then Clough and his mates.

 

We could have the best defenders in the world, if they're not organised, they will always look last ditch and panicky.

 

I know how good the coaching is simply by seeing how the defence interact with each other and how certain goals are conceded.

 

I don't think that's a fair comparison.

 

Granted Leacock was impressive under Billy but then so was the team as a whole. He was dreadful under Jewell because he was playing at a higher level. He also hadn't started well in the Prem under Billy.

 

By the time he returned to the Championship, his confidence (& he does strike me as a "confidence player") had clearly been shot. Look where he is now after leaving Derby - further downhill.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Simply by seeing the difference in players like Leacock going from a specialised defensive coach to firstly Jewell and his mates, then Clough and his mates.

 

We could have the best defenders in the world, if they're not organised, they will always look last ditch and panicky.

 

I know how good the coaching is simply by seeing how the defence interact with each other and how certain goals are conceded.

If I may enter the discussion for a minute. Basically Mostyn it seems to me your whole view of everything the team currently does is clouded by your perception that Clough and "his mates" aren't up to it. Player responsibility doesn't seem to enter the discussion.

 

Coaching is over -rated and has become to some more important than ability. There seems to be some idea that a poor player can be coached into a good player. Well I'm sorry be he can't. The best thing a manager can do is assemble the best players (ability coupled with personality) with the money available into a coherent squad.

 

Coaching to a degree has its place of course, even an important one, but not to the extremes (in my opinion) you take it. This idea for instance of defending after 60mins or whatever as a tactic is plain wrong. If a team is 1-0 or 2-0 up it should be able to sit and see out the game. To invite the opposition on a little and counter punch is quite normal. The fact we have been poor at this is not the coaching staffs fault it's the mentality, the lack of maturity, of the players. I see signs that the players are fast growing up. If they do and learn to contain but not capitulate (and if they want to be a top team they must) then we will have a top side on our hands because the passing and movement, including from the defence, currently is sublime.

[Leicester Ram]

Coaching to a degree has its place of course, even an important one, but not to the extremes (in my opinion) you take it. This idea for instance of defending after 60mins or whatever as a tactic is plain wrong. If a team is 1-0 or 2-0 up it should be able to sit and see out the game. To invite the opposition on a little and counter punch is quite normal. The fact we have been poor at this is not the coaching staffs fault it's the mentality, the lack of maturity, of the players. I see signs that the players are fast growing up. If they do and learn to contain but not capitulate (and if they want to be a top team they must) then we will have a top side on our hands because the passing and movement, including from the defence, currently is sublime.

 

Well put.

[RodleyRam]

If I may enter the discussion for a minute. Basically Mostyn it seems to me your whole view of everything the team currently does is clouded by your perception that Clough and "his mates" aren't up to it. Player responsibility doesn't seem to enter the discussion.

Coaching is over -rated and has become to some more important than ability. There seems to be some idea that a poor player can be coached into a good player. Well I'm sorry be he can't. The best thing a manager can do is assemble the best players (ability coupled withu personality) with the money available into a coherent squad.

Coaching to a degree has its place of course, even an important one, but not to the extremes (in my opinion) you take it. This idea for instance of defending after 60mins or whatever as a tactic is plain wrong. If a team is 1-0 or 2-0 up it should be able to sit and see out the game. To invite the opposition on a little and counter punch is quite normal. The fact we have been poor at this is not the coaching staffs fault it's the mentality, the lack of maturity, of the players. I see signs that the players are fast growing up. If they do and learn to contain but not capitulate (and if they want to be a top team they must) then we will have a top side on our hands because the passing and movement, including from the defence, currently is sublime.

Exactly the point i was trying to make.

[Mostyn6]

not every defender we have can be crap and become worse naturally just because they play for Derby

[PrivateDerby]

At least we don't have to fake power cuts because of injuries anymore.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

not every defender we have can be crap and become worse naturally just because they play for Derby

They are not and they don't. Don't take this personally but I think It's you trying to justify your preconceived idea.

[Mostyn6]

They are not and they don't. Don't take this personally but I think It's you trying to justify your preconceived idea.

 

'preconceived'?? Why is it preconceived? I didn't think the coaches weren't pretty poor defensively before they arrived!

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Maybe not but you did think Clough & his mates weren't up to it generally when they arrived didn't you?

[ronnieronalde]

Maybe not but you did think Clough & his mates weren't up to it generally when they arrived didn't you?

He's described them on many occasions as amateurs.

When I saw the title of the thread and then read the first line, I thought and possibly even hoped it was going to be an admission from Mostyn.

For someone who views his own level of football knowledge very highly indeed, Mostyn has been unable or unwilling to give credit for the shift in style. has been unable or unwilling to give credit for the improvement in our play, the improvement in our results. Either he's ignoring what's happening on the pitch or he's not as good a judge as he thinks.

Somethings never change?  Aye you've been whining for four years that we're in trouble with this management team in charge. That hasn't changed, even now you're not praising them at all, just looking for something else to complain about.

 

Even when we go up you'll be complaining we're not top 6 in the Prem by the end of September. 

 

"He's got to go, he's taken us as far as he can, I'd love for him to succeed but you're all blind if you can't see we're going nowhere with these amateurs running things, they don't even know that in the modern game the pitch is now split into 12 seperate parts, for those of you who have less football knowledge than me, that's pretty much everyone except maybe Bris, think of each part as one twelfth if you will. I texted Andy about it cos Poyet is available, he didn't agree"

 

How about this?

There's none so blind as those who will not see.

 

I want to like you Mostyn, really I do, I want you to succeed more than any other poster on this board. I'm just not sure after four and half years of being unable to change your tactics that you've got the expansive knowledge, in fact you need to step it up. 

[WilkoRam]

I started reading this thread in hope and thought I could see the point of it. A few pages later and some petty squabbling and it's been totally lost for me.

I thought the point was as follows, and sorry if I'm getting it wrong.

We are playing well and we play with a certain attacking style and in the middle of the park we are passing it. This is nothing new. We have done it before under Nigel. I will always remember the Hulse, Commons, Bueno, Cwyka line up as it was the time I thought we were going somewhere. We looked positive, it was good to watch. What happened then though was not so good. We had a wobble, a dip in form and notably we went from this nice, attacking, entertaining style to a safety first, grinding out results style that, in my opinion, put us in more trouble. I don't like the "grinding out results" attitude I find it an old football cliché that is pretty much nonsense. So it's nice how we've started but I hope it continues and we don't panic with the first bit of poor form and revert to the safety first approach. It could happen and it would be history repeating itself. I don't want this to be another false dawn.

[Mostyn6]

Maybe not but you did think Clough & his mates weren't up to it generally when they arrived didn't you?

 

 

I didn't think Clough wasn't up to it, I held high hopes for him, I thought he had a proven pedigree and his intelligence as a footballer would translate as a manager. I admit that I always had reservations about the lack of experience, but I also believed that an experienced number two (assistant manager OR 1st team coach) at this level would cover any deficiencies whilst Clough grew into the role. Perhaps an even bigger frustration than the perceived lack of positivity and tactical nous for me, is the fact that the coaching staff has never been changed one bit, regardless of repetition.

 

I think it was about 4 or 5 months before I seriously thought that Clough had his limits, and those limits would result in Derby never improving beyond mid-table obscurity.

[BOB BIGGS]

I didn't think Clough wasn't up to it, I held high hopes for him, I thought he had a proven pedigree and his intelligence as a footballer would translate as a manager. I admit that I always had reservations about the lack of experience, but I also believed that an experienced number two (assistant manager OR 1st team coach) at this level would cover any deficiencies whilst Clough grew into the role. Perhaps an even bigger frustration than the perceived lack of positivity and tactical nous for me, is the fact that the coaching staff has never been changed one bit, regardless of repetition.

 

I think it was about 4 or 5 months before I seriously thought that Clough had his limits, and those limits would result in Derby never improving beyond mid-table obscurity.

I'm sure you said at the start of the season, that you had a feeling that we will do better this time around. I think we've started reasonably well so why the worry so early? We're top half and that's about as good as we are. An extra £3m on two good players and we move on.

 

All the doomsters who said we would be poor away from home again now have to change course and concentrate on home form. For some, only defeat will do. It justifies their previous stances.

 

It's so much easier for me. I want us to win every game but accept that it isn't going to happen. Mistakes will be made by management and players [such things happen in life]. Bring in Albrighton and a red hot Centre Half, get Hendrick fit, keep Hughes and I'm looking at that 5th-8th area. Until all that happens, we'll win some and we'll lose some and we'll draw some.

[ariotofmyown]

I didn't think Clough wasn't up to it, I held high hopes for him, I thought he had a proven pedigree and his intelligence as a footballer would translate as a manager. I admit that I always had reservations about the lack of experience, but I also believed that an experienced number two (assistant manager OR 1st team coach) at this level would cover any deficiencies whilst Clough grew into the role. Perhaps an even bigger frustration than the perceived lack of positivity and tactical nous for me, is the fact that the coaching staff has never been changed one bit, regardless of repetition.

I think it was about 4 or 5 months before I seriously thought that Clough had his limits, and those limits would result in Derby never improving beyond mid-table obscurity.

So you were wrong then. Fair play, thanks for admitting it.

[uttoxram75]

I started reading this thread in hope and thought I could see the point of it. A few pages later and some petty squabbling and it's been totally lost for me.

I thought the point was as follows, and sorry if I'm getting it wrong.

We are playing well and we play with a certain attacking style and in the middle of the park we are passing it. This is nothing new. We have done it before under Nigel. I will always remember the Hulse, Commons, Bueno, Cwyka line up as it was the time I thought we were going somewhere. We looked positive, it was good to watch. What happened then though was not so good. We had a wobble, a dip in form and notably we went from this nice, attacking, entertaining style to a safety first, grinding out results style that, in my opinion, put us in more trouble. I don't like the "grinding out results" attitude I find it an old football cliché that is pretty much nonsense. So it's nice how we've started but I hope it continues and we don't panic with the first bit of poor form and revert to the safety first approach. It could happen and it would be history repeating itself. I don't want this to be another false dawn.

 

This is the reason why I think he will succeed. He is desperate for us to play the right way. For all the reasons that have been argued and debated for the last 4 years (cutting the wage bill, selling before we can buy, tactics, coaching etc, etc) he has not been able to do it for long enough.

The point is though, that he keeps trying, keeps attempting to get the players in capable of playing this type of football. Not once has he reverted to the Sam Allardyce/Tony Pulis type of huge strong frankensteins. 

If anything he's gone for lightweights with a bit of skill/technical ability - while all the time having to scour the bargain basements.

[WilkoRam]

This is the reason why I think he will succeed. He is desperate for us to play the right way. For all the reasons that have been argued and debated for the last 4 years (cutting the wage bill, selling before we can buy, tactics, coaching etc, etc) he has not been able to do it for long enough.

The point is though, that he keeps trying, keeps attempting to get the players in capable of playing this type of football. Not once has he reverted to the Sam Allardyce/Tony Pulis type of huge strong frankensteins.

If anything he's gone for lightweights with a bit of skill/technical ability - while all the time having to scour the bargain basements.

But as stated it's not a new thing. I think every season we have said we are "trying to play with the ball in the ground" but that style doesn't seem to last the season. Come November time we lose that ability and style. I don't know why. Do we panic? Do we think we should just try and be solid and get points? Do the players lose confidence and are reluctant to pass it? I don't know. Hopefully we've found the fix and it doesn't happen this season. If we can't maintain it for a season. If we can't find that consistency then we won't make it. We've been consistently inconsistent for years so we need that to change.

[Mostyn6]

He's described them on many occasions as amateurs.

When I saw the title of the thread and then read the first line, I thought and possibly even hoped it was going to be an admission from Mostyn.

For someone who views his own level of football knowledge very highly indeed, Mostyn has been unable or unwilling to give credit for the shift in style. has been unable or unwilling to give credit for the improvement in our play, the improvement in our results. Either he's ignoring what's happening on the pitch or he's not as good a judge as he thinks.

Somethings never change?  Aye you've been whining for four years that we're in trouble with this management team in charge. That hasn't changed, even now you're not praising them at all, just looking for something else to complain about.

 

Even when we go up you'll be complaining we're not top 6 in the Prem by the end of September. 

 

"He's got to go, he's taken us as far as he can, I'd love for him to succeed but you're all blind if you can't see we're going nowhere with these amateurs running things, they don't even know that in the modern game the pitch is now split into 12 seperate parts, for those of you who have less football knowledge than me, that's pretty much everyone except maybe Bris, think of each part as one twelfth if you will. I texted Andy about it cos Poyet is available, he didn't agree"

 

How about this?

There's none so blind as those who will not see.

 

I want to like you Mostyn, really I do, I want you to succeed more than any other poster on this board. I'm just not sure after four and half years of being unable to change your tactics that you've got the expansive knowledge, in fact you need to step it up. 

 

I think you're trying goad a response out of me, so here goes..

 

a, Prior to coming here, only Metgod (at Portsmouth) can be described as a experienced coaching in the football league.Hence the rest were employed as amateurs.

 

b, My knowledge is simply based on 30 years of watching and 20 years of playing, and a couple of coaching courses/qualifications. If I say I could do a better job than Clough, it's mischief-making and tongue in cheek and you know it! BUT, there are decisions I would've made differently that I'm convinced would've had a more positive outcome. As for giving Clough credit, for what exactly? He didn't make a conscious decision to cost-cut and be responsible, he was following orders and any manager would've had to do that. Improvement in play?? Really? Three years ago, as stated in the article I wrote then, we were playing brilliantly. Can the manager keep it going? That's when the credit will be given, when Clough proves he's not a bottler!

 

c, I think you're picking and choosing what to remember of my posts. I was buzzing after Brentford and had NEVER left Pride Park in a better mood than I did that night. It was awesome and I was gobsmacked at the sheer domination and master-class of football, and I said as much on the forum for the following few days (until Burnley!!!). I've given Clough credit for seeing something in Chris Martin that 90% of people on this forum could not see. I've given Clough credit for signing Johnny Russell and was full of enthusiasm about that. I've given Clough credit for ridding the team (although not some fans) of the self-pity from the aftermath of the Premier League debacle and the subsequent fall into the abyss as Jewell had scattergun approach to recruiting players! I've credited Clough for his loyalty to certain people and his honesty (whether this is a good thing in football is another debate). I've credited Clough for assembling a team that actually contains 'saleable assets' after he inherited a team of people that nobody wanted. I've credited Clough with recruiting the type of players that you would like your children to look upto, and not a bunch of misbehaving, badly behaved disgraces. BUt you carry on throwing mud at me, I can handle it

 

d, Yes I have been saying for four years that Clough would take us no further. Amidst all the responses of "next season", "give him ten games", "I'll judge when he's built his own team", "I'll give him until Christmas", "next season is when I'll judge him" and most popularly "he hasn't spent as much money as <insert another manager/club name here>!" But when these timescales are up, the goalposts are moved by the Clough-apologists. I make no apologies for not believing in Clough and his CURRENT coaching set-up. I've seen enough over the years to justify it in abundance. I refuse to hide behind the finances excuse, because of how easily we've been turned over by lower league teams over the years!

 

e, You comment about even when we go up I'll complain...er... when will that be? Won't be this season or next with Clough, I'll bet you. But if we do, I'd be the first to get the plate of humble pie out of the fridge-freezer! I almost got it out after 20 mins against Sheff Weds last season, when I thought the tide has finally turned,but we know what happened there don't we!

 

f. your 'quote' although not made by me, did make me chuckle. The pitch is in 6ths, not 12ths! lol. But I take that as your personal dig at me and not my opinions.

 

g, As for you liking me, that's down to you. I personally have a lot more respect for people who are honest and open about their beliefs instead of pretending their opinion is something else to be popular. I've not got a conceited bone in my body. I type what I type with a smile on my face. I treat this no differently to if I was sitting in a pub chatting with mates and arguing over who was the best or worst player in the team or whatever. Don't take it so seriously.

[Mostyn6]

So you were wrong then. Fair play, thanks for admitting it.

 

I don't think it's wrong to give someone a chance. Nigel deserved to be judged after doing the job for a period of time, even if his appointment was purely a calculated tug on the romantic heart-strings due to his surname by the board to disguise their change in philosophy.