Is Cloughie stubborn over certain players because of the Clough tag

[networker1884]

I stumbled across this comment that might be interesting, obviously different circumstances, but nevertheless interesting.

 

..."The fifth – painfully – was at the other Clough stamping ground, Nottingham Forest, where the last game of 2010 resulted in a 5-2 humiliation. Clough (left), Forest's second-highest scorer of all time, was so disgusted that he broke with normal etiquette and named the players he felt had most let him down. "It was nothing to do with how I felt personally. I don't really look at it on a personal level because for me as a professional it is about my job as Derby's manager.

"I look at it more from the point of view of the 4,500 supporters who travelled. To lose to your local rivals is unsatisfactory at any time but to lose in the manner in which we did, to give goals away as we did, was extremely hurtful to everyone at Derby. I don't regret naming players. I more regret playing them. A local derby is about who wants to put his head in, put his foot in where it hurts, who wants to do everything he can not to concede a goal. Two or three people did not do that and we named them."

[LeedsCityRam]

I stumbled across this comment that might be interesting, obviously different circumstances, but nevertheless interesting.

 

..."The fifth – painfully – was at the other Clough stamping ground, Nottingham Forest, where the last game of 2010 resulted in a 5-2 humiliation. Clough (left), Forest's second-highest scorer of all time, was so disgusted that he broke with normal etiquette and named the players he felt had most let him down. "It was nothing to do with how I felt personally. I don't really look at it on a personal level because for me as a professional it is about my job as Derby's manager.

"I look at it more from the point of view of the 4,500 supporters who travelled. To lose to your local rivals is unsatisfactory at any time but to lose in the manner in which we did, to give goals away as we did, was extremely hurtful to everyone at Derby. I don't regret naming players. I more regret playing them. A local derby is about who wants to put his head in, put his foot in where it hurts, who wants to do everything he can not to concede a goal. Two or three people did not do that and we named them."

 

Its interesting but like you say, in different circumstances. That day, Clough was identifying players who simply hadn't tried. Freeman on Sat did try, he made mistakes but he was by no means the only one nor the main culprit. Unless he's a very grounded & secure lad, I'd expect a certain amount of resentment from him.

[BondJovi]

Freeman had a bad day! Not much worse than the rest of the team, just he made the final errors for two of the goals. The only time I would ever think Clough(or any manager) was justified in naming and shaming is if the player in question put no effort in and strolled about the pitch without care. Even if the question was specifically asked about Freeman, he did not have to lay the blame at his door.

I just find it unprofessional.

[Ambitious]

Hate to correct you...but you missed Russell off!

 

Russell showed his quality in getting the chances, and in/around the box - his finishing was just, wowzers. 

 

He also indicated that Russell missed the penalty and 2 chances, I make that 2 with Freeman.

 

You don't include Forsyth in your list, his defending is abysmal at times and poor most of the rest of the time, also Martin obviously has a penchant for his hobby [vermiculture], if a defender breathes on him he goes down which is neither clever nor endearing him to many supporters.

 

For me Forsyth played perhaps his best game in a Derby shirt - usually frustrated me with his punting down the line, and getting too close to his man who is usually quicker, making his job harder.

 

Against Tracey he had the beating of him on the floor, and he didn't make many pointless lumps down the line - was my MOTM personally, but understand that after his very bad month (which he has) even when he plays well he will be seen as useless. I have took an indirect intrest in Forysth because he has disappointed me, but against Burnley he was okay, much better than his previous out-tings. 

[uttoxram75]

Imagine if everyone at work had a bad day and your boss decided to single you out in front of everyone. I don't think many folks would be too chuffed.

Haha..you've never ran a manufacturing/production shift or department in the private sector then?

 

Name, shame and blame is the standard method of motivation!

[Mostyn6]

Haha..you've never ran a manufacturing/production shift or department in the private sector then?

Name, shame and blame is the standard method of motivation!

I always find its blame other departments, which some would argue is the equivalent of blaming the ref in football.

[G STAR RAM]

Whatever happened to winning as a team and losing as a team?

I'm sure most will agree Saturday was just an all round off day and not one single player came away with any credit.

Why not just come and out and say our back 4 didn't defend properly, our midfield were non existent and our strikers were firing blanks.

That way we put it behind us and move on instead of spending the next 2 weeks criticising.

[davenportram]

I agree after the disappointment comes the reality. Cloughie will go into the loan market after deadline day I'm sure. Top 6 we are told is our aim.

Yeah but only for someone to replace Hendrick, and only if our targets don't get permanent moves.

“I thought Will was off it. He and Craig Bryson gave the ball away more than they did in the previous six games and we are still looking for more impact on the game from Paul Coutts.

[uttoxram75]

I always find its blame other departments, which some would argue is the equivalent of blaming the ref in football.

Sometimes it is the ref's fault (Atwell) but its always other Departments fault

[RodleyRam]

But the manager should of played Eustace .

That's his decision. Why replace Freeman at halftime he should of replaced Coutts with Eustace that would have had more impact on the game. Surely he hasn't bought Eustace just for the last 10 minutes in games he's better than Coutts in midfield but of course he went 4-4-2 to accommodate Coutts.

In fairness we played standard 4-4-2 for the first 10 minutes after that it was variations with coutts playing central and ward behind front two or outlet on left. Not entirely dissimilar to how we've approached all our games this seasom home and away.

However, we lost so therefore it must be the tactics at fault rather than our players not doing their jobs properly/opposition playing well.

[a38ram]

But wasn't he specifically asked about Freeman?

Its like the Cywka thing. Some were annoyed that he publicly slated Cywka. Others were just annoyed that what he wants from his players is to hoof into corners. Others didnt see anything wrong.

Thing is if you ask Nigel where it went wrong 10 mins after the final whistle then he tells you. He doesn't do the textbook answers. Neither does Mourinho or Di Canio etc.

Do people want the textbook answers or what he thinks. What did we say about people 10mins after the game?

I care about how Freeman will be treated. I thought Cywka was good enough to be in the squad after that. I think Freeman should be given another chance. If he isn't and Smith steps in then I hope to see him on a similar knife edge and Freeman pounce on his place.

So long as Freeman isn't put on the naughty step and sent to Coventry I don't see any harm.

 

I just hope Clough doesnt treat Freeman like he has Naylor, Naylor had a good 8-9 games at right back and played well, then one bad game out of position at left back and hes gone and told hes not wanted, I hope Freemans confidence has not been shattered by the stupid public comments by a totally inept manager who should bol--ck players behind closed doors and keep it within the club, its not for all and sundry to hear, bad management

[Asanovic]

Some amusing posts here. Everyone's a manager aren't they?

There are hundreds of factors when selecting a team. Who is a threat from set pieces, who can combat the opposition's physical CM, and if a player is dropped, who does the manager have that can replace him to actually do a good job, not just replace him to try something to keep people happy, etc etc etc.

'Keogh should be dropped'. Why? Because after 5 games he's looked patchy? So if he's dropped, Gjokaj I imagine comes in. If and when he does become a first teamer he'll need time to settle in. If he has a few shockers at the start, will some people use that as a stick to beat the manager with? Course they will.

Anyway, who says dropping Keogh is right? Do we have better options? Hands up who sits through training at Moor Farm everyday and can qualify the other CBs? How about if Buxton plays well with any of the other CBs? Anyone performing poorly in training at the moment that doesn't merit a place in the team?

We haven't got a bloody clue. Because we're supporters, not employees, of the club. None of us actually know anything about the squad and their performance, fitness, attitude, personal issues or training habits, other than What we see on the pitch each week, on Twitter, or in the paper. Lots of people 'know people at the club' but unless those people are the manager or coaches then I'll respectfully take it with a pinch of salt.

I see lots of things and wonder whether it's right but I know jack ****. I'm entitled to an opinion as is everyone else but we fund the wages of a man whose expertise lies in managing a football team. Every single thing he does will have a reason behind it, many of which the 23,000 in the ground won't have a clue about.

The Leicester game was infuriating. People round me shouting for Ward after about 40 minutes, seemingly blind to the fact he'd played midweek. When he came on he looked leggy and didn't do much in my opinion, but then he gets it in the neck for not introducing him earlier - with 20 minutes to go!

He's performed reasonably well in terms of league position with money and personnel available - I'm not sure he deserves his every decision questioning.

To be clear - I'm not saying no one should voice concern or discontent. Just saying there's a reason for everything he does. It's not just stubbornness. He's a Derby fan too, don't forget.

Another comment on here about man management is interesting. When Cwyka took a roasting after Portsmouth, he had a good game the week after. When he got subbed at forest when Fielding got sent off, he had his arm round Cwyka. Which it turns out was Clough apologising and explaining why it happened.

He'd made a few comments about Hendrick before he was rested. He came back to be one of our best players. That's man management, looking after your players.

The furore over comments he makes on RD is over the top IMO, and I see nothing in those comments that would knock a professional footballer's enormous self belief. If Freeman looks badly affected in his next game then fair enough - but I bet he won't be.

If he'd said 'Kieron lost us the game and I thought he was terrible', I'd say that's unprofessional. Explaining why he made a substitution isn't so bad, to me.

[Mostyn6]

Some amusing posts here. Everyone's a manager aren't they?

There are hundreds of factors when selecting a team. Who is a threat from set pieces, who can combat the opposition's physical CM, and if a player is dropped, who does the manager have that can replace him to actually do a good job, not just replace him to try something to keep people happy, etc etc etc.

'Keogh should be dropped'. Why? Because after 5 games he's looked patchy? So if he's dropped, Gjokaj I imagine comes in. If and when he does become a first teamer he'll need time to settle in. If he has a few shockers at the start, will some people use that as a stick to beat the manager with? Course they will.

Anyway, who says dropping Keogh is right? Do we have better options? Hands up who sits through training at Moor Farm everyday and can qualify the other CBs? How about if Buxton plays well with any of the other CBs? Anyone performing poorly in training at the moment that doesn't merit a place in the team?

We haven't got a bloody clue. Because we're supporters, not employees, of the club. None of us actually know anything about the squad and their performance, fitness, attitude, personal issues or training habits, other than What we see on the pitch each week, on Twitter, or in the paper. Lots of people 'know people at the club' but unless those people are the manager or coaches then I'll respectfully take it with a pinch of salt.

I see lots of things and wonder whether it's right but I know jack ****. I'm entitled to an opinion as is everyone else but we fund the wages of a man whose expertise lies in managing a football team. Every single thing he does will have a reason behind it, many of which the 23,000 in the ground won't have a clue about.

The Leicester game was infuriating. People round me shouting for Ward after about 40 minutes, seemingly blind to the fact he'd played midweek. When he came on he looked leggy and didn't do much in my opinion, but then he gets it in the neck for not introducing him earlier - with 20 minutes to go!

He's performed reasonably well in terms of league position with money and personnel available - I'm not sure he deserves his every decision questioning.

To be clear - I'm not saying no one should voice concern or discontent. Just saying there's a reason for everything he does. It's not just stubbornness. He's a Derby fan too, don't forget.

Another comment on here about man management is interesting. When Cwyka took a roasting after Portsmouth, he had a good game the week after. When he got subbed at forest when Fielding got sent off, he had his arm round Cwyka. Which it turns out was Clough apologising and explaining why it happened.

He'd made a few comments about Hendrick before he was rested. He came back to be one of our best players. That's man management, looking after your players.

The furore over comments he makes on RD is over the top IMO, and I see nothing in those comments that would knock a professional footballer's enormous self belief. If Freeman looks badly affected in his next game then fair enough - but I bet he won't be.

If he'd said 'Kieron lost us the game and I thought he was terrible', I'd say that's unprofessional. Explaining why he made a substitution isn't so bad, to me.

 

 

so, are you Clough in? or Clough out? I can't tell

[Asanovic]

so, are you Clough in? or Clough out? I can't tell

And that question highlights the problem with many Derby fans.

Why does there have to be an in or out? I'm a 'Clough's the right man for this moment'. He should get this season, and if we aren't even close to the top six, it's time to explore other options. But until that time I'm going all in on him and the team, because I believe we can do it. If we don't, well, we won't know that until next year. I'll worry about it then.

[Mostyn6]

And that question highlights the problem with many Derby fans.

Why does there have to be an in or out? I'm a 'Clough's the right man for this moment'. He should get this season, and if we aren't even close to the top six, it's time to explore other options. But until that time I'm going all in on him and the team, because I believe we can do it. If we don't, well, we won't know that until next year. I'll worry about it then.

 

 

How would you react then if we lost ten games on the trot and was bottom at the end of November? Would you still say "end of the season"?

[Asanovic]

How would you react then if we lost ten games on the trot and was bottom at the end of November? Would you still say "end of the season"?

Difficult to say because nothing during his entire time here would suggest we'd ever lose ten games on the spin with a squad like this. I'd say sack him, but to be honest if me you, Fergy or Mourinho were in charge and lost ten consecutive games with the team we have, my answer would be the same.

How about you? If we won ten on the spin would you still be saying he wasn't right for us?

[bcnram]

Well said Mr Asanovic, it is good to read an adult version of events on here instead of the child like furore over NC saying why Freeman was subbed.

Football is a tough industry and its customers all have very high expectations of what is on the field. I don't know of any footballer who has crumbled because they have been criticised by a manager.

[Mostyn6]

Difficult to say because nothing during his entire time here would suggest we'd ever lose ten games on the spin with a squad like this. I'd say sack him, but to be honest if me you, Fergy or Mourinho were in charge and lost ten consecutive games with the team we have, my answer would be the same.

How about you? If we won ten on the spin would you still be saying he wasn't right for us?

 

 

Difficult to say because nothing during his entire time here would suggest we'd ever win ten games on the spin with a set up like this.

 

I'd say he was right for us, I've been waiting and wanting to say this for 4 years now, I initially thought he was after the Forest wins of 2009, but then that feeling was soon replaced with one of er.... this nothingness that is happening now would happen.

[Mostyn6]

Well said Mr Asanovic, it is good to read an adult version of events on here instead of the child like furore over NC saying why Freeman was subbed.

Football is a tough industry and its customers all have very high expectations of what is on the field. I don't know of any footballer who has crumbled because they have been criticised by a manager.

 

YOU may think that, but as Mr Asanovic is quick to point out (when it suits his argument), we are not in the industry, so don't know.

 

Can you provide an example of a successful manager criticising a player who went on to perform under the same manager.

 

You won't have examples of crumbling as such, you tend to find criticised players tend to leave, or the manager does not long after the criticism, as turning on your players is usually the last desperate attempt of a failing manager to earn more time.

[Asanovic]

Difficult to say because nothing during his entire time here would suggest we'd ever win ten games on the spin with a set up like this.

 

I'd say he was right for us, I've been waiting and wanting to say this for 4 years now, I initially thought he was after the Forest wins of 2009, but then that feeling was soon replaced with one of er.... this nothingness that is happening now would happen.

I figured your answer would be identical to mine, because it's an entirely unrealistic circumstance that is barely worth spending a second thinking about.