Mostyn6 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I let out a Bananas before typing this, as I can guess the kind of response I'm going to get. I don't think new defenders are the most important thing, I would rather a proper defensive coach was appointed/promoted. We've seen, under the management of Billy Davies how good 'average' players can look when organised and inspired. We've NEVER looked organised and commanding in defence under Clough's tenure, I'm not saying that's Clough's bad coaching though, just think a better coach on the staff might've helped. Even though our defence improved when Shackell and Barker played together, it always looked reactionary and 'last ditch' with sliding tackles and goal-line clearances on display more often that interceptions and commanding and controlled tackles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 No, it's a very good point. Goals conceded by season and how that compared to the other teams 2008/09 67 conceded (20th) 2009/10 63 conceded (joint 13th) 2010/11 71 conceded (joint 18th) 2011/12 58 conceded (joint 12th) 2012/13 62 conceded (joint 12th) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I let out a Bananas before typing this, as I can guess the kind of response I'm going to get. I don't think new defenders are the most important thing, I would rather a proper defensive coach was appointed/promoted. We've seen, under the management of Billy Davies how good 'average' players can look when organised and inspired. We've NEVER looked organised and commanding in defence under Clough's tenure, I'm not saying that's Clough's bad coaching though, just think a better coach on the staff might've helped. Even though our defence improved when Shackell and Barker played together, it always looked reactionary and 'last ditch' with sliding tackles and goal-line clearances on display more often that interceptions and commanding and controlled tackles.Maybe a defensive midfielder, like Eustace, may help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddesdenRam Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I know it was vs Burton but Buxton looked very comfortable tonight. West Brom will be a better test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 That's about the 4th differing view on Buxton's performance we've had tonight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Buxton was poor, brilliant, crap and not bad tonight.Not of king jakes normal consistent standard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I let out a Bananas before typing this, as I can guess the kind of response I'm going to get. I don't think new defenders are the most important thing, I would rather a proper defensive coach was appointed/promoted. We've seen, under the management of Billy Davies how good 'average' players can look when organised and inspired. We've NEVER looked organised and commanding in defence under Clough's tenure, I'm not saying that's Clough's bad coaching though, just think a better coach on the staff might've helped. Even though our defence improved when Shackell and Barker played together, it always looked reactionary and 'last ditch' with sliding tackles and goal-line clearances on display more often that interceptions and commanding and controlled tackles. Were you expecting anyone to say "mmm maybe Motsyn has got a good point here. We know he thinks Clough is useless but, and this is where Motsyn's understanding of football is really quite amazing, he can see past this to pinpoint a lack of a proper defensive cosch is the problem. Anyone can say the manager is crap, but it takes a true scholar to appreciate this coaching issue." Personally, I think we actually need a proper left sided defensive nutrition coach as both Roberts and Forsyth both lost us goals through lack of vitamin b. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Were you expecting anyone to say "mmm maybe Motsyn has got a good point here. We know he thinks Clough is useless but, and this is where Motsyn's understanding of football is really quite amazing, he can see past this to pinpoint a lack of a proper defensive cosch is the problem. Anyone can say the manager is crap, but it takes a true scholar to appreciate this coaching issue." Personally, I think we actually need a proper left sided defensive nutrition coach as both Roberts and Forsyth both lost us goals through lack of vitamin b. No, I expected a few so blinded by the romanticism of having a manager surnamed 'Clough' to blurt out some nonsense about me rather than the contents and context of my post. I was wrong. There wasn't a few! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asanovic Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Eustace sounds the business at CB. Having said that, Croft looked good pre season last time round, and look where he ended up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I'm not worried about the defence, if we concede 4 just make sure we score 5 and we'll still win the league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I let out a Bananas before typing this, as I can guess the kind of response I'm going to get. I don't think new defenders are the most important thing, I would rather a proper defensive coach was appointed/promoted. We've seen, under the management of Billy Davies how good 'average' players can look when organised and inspired. We've NEVER looked organised and commanding in defence under Clough's tenure, I'm not saying that's Clough's bad coaching though, just think a better coach on the staff might've helped. Even though our defence improved when Shackell and Barker played together, it always looked reactionary and 'last ditch' with sliding tackles and goal-line clearances on display more often that interceptions and commanding and controlled tackles. Your CBs ARE your last ditch defensive options... whether attackes come down the middle or the sides...So them blocking/tackling on a reactionary basis is unsurprising... What we've been missing for a while is midfield cover... When we play well the midfield hold onto the ball enough that everything against us is on the break, which means less attackers against our defence and therefore easier to deal with... But when it's a more even game and the opposition attack in numbers we have very little cover from our CMs... None of them are tacklers... Hence Eustace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randombc Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Is our central defence strong enough for a top 6 push? Keogh, Buxton, Gjokaj, OB, Barker. Given two are injured and one inexperienced I think this is where we will fall down. Can we sign another, even on loan? Quite simply no, we're lacking another CB - even just a youngster. Buxton should be back up - even though I love him to bits he's not top 6 standard unfortunately. A good young player on loan from Man Utd like Michael Keane would be good, he did a good job at Leicester last season and made 22 appearances for them and will be all the better for it. I feel we need someone in on loan at least until Christmas, as OB and Barker will need a pre-season behind them during the season i.e. a good 3 or 4 weeks (Barker may even need about 6 weeks) of intense exercise to get anywhere near to match fitness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal is a Ram Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Gjokaj will easily make the step up IMO, I've been impressed with him when he's played at CB, less so at RB. It was a shame we couldn't get Richard Dunne, he could have been the same as Eustace is to the midfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfb Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I think a few of us want to see us push on, and maybe Barks can come back and be what he once was, maybe not who knows, he's 31 soon... either way we need to think long term if we want to progress, (and i believe NC in choosing younger players is doing just that,) In terms of the question posed, no i dont think we are strong enough, its the one peice missing from the build up this year, and i hope we are still keeping tabs,and are going to make an attempt to sign someone like Cyrus Christie .... he's 21 soon.... http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11710/8818827/transfer-news-coventry-defender-cyrus-christie-wanted-by-number-of-clubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I think a few of us want to see us push on, and maybe Barks can come back and be what he once was, maybe not who knows, he's 31 soon... I think he's going to be a really important piece of the side... What we need is someone to organise the defence... Keogh is great but he's more of a leader by example... what we need is a leader through inspiration... someone who gets the best out of the others and organises them... And Barks himself stated that he wasn't exactly pacey before... Remember when we had Paul McGrath? The guy basically had no knees and he was solid as a rock... Barks' positional sense has always been good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Teale Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I think he's going to be a really important piece of the side... What we need is someone to organise the defence... Keogh is great but he's more of a leader by example... what we need is a leader through inspiration... someone who gets the best out of the others and organises them... And Barks himself stated that he wasn't exactly pacey before... Remember when we had Paul McGrath? The guy basically had no knees and he was solid as a rock... Barks' positional sense has always been good... Please don't link Paul McGrath and Shaun barker . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester Ram Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I think Clough is waiting until we've played a few games before deciding. We've got some tough opening games so it'll test the defence and obviously if we're conceding lots he'll bring in a loan until Barker comes back. I think he's basically waiting on Barker and showing some faith in him, which is fair enough because he's a great guy and sublime defender on his day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Please don't link Paul McGrath and Shaun barker . Why not? That's like saying "please don't link Lionel Messi and Emile Heskey" - They're both footballers... there... link... Doesn't say anything about relative quality does it? Barker is a slow CB who has serious problems with his knees but who can still play a decent part for us... That sounds quite a lot like McGrath was when he joined us... Have I said anywhere that Barker is as good as McGrath? No... Get a sense of perspective mate... players can be compared without saying "x is a similar player and therefore must be as good as y" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Teale Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Why not? That's like saying "please don't link Lionel Messi and Emile Heskey" - They're both footballers... there... link... Doesn't say anything about relative quality does it? Barker is a slow CB who has serious problems with his knees but who can still play a decent part for us... That sounds quite a lot like McGrath was when he joined us... Have I said anywhere that Barker is as good as McGrath? No... Get a sense of perspective mate... players can be compared without saying "x is a similar player and therefore must be as good as y" Not at all, i dont need to put anything into perspective. McGrath had proved he could play with his dodgy knees before joining us as he had them for years. Also the quality of player does make a huge difference, McGrath could play with bad knees as he was a top top player. Barker was average that was before his knee and now we haven't a clue. Barkers biggest strength is he attacks the ball, McGrath could play from the back, read the game, great one v one he was a total centre half. So your comparison is poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 perhaps it won't be a surprise, but I agree with emjlc here. I find the comparison poor, and in a similar vein to comparing John Eustace to Dave MacKay. Both McGrath and MacKay were arguably world class at their peak, so even a XX% decrease in ability/pace/fitness would only take them down to 'good' level. Eustace and Barker have been mid-league cloggers at best, both solid professionals, but neither having exceptional ability. I would argue that excellent attitudes to the game have been as important in their careers as ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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