Pressure is on Clough to deliver. Starting today.

[RIMBAUD]

No he has not mate, he has done the penny pinching part, but the septics expect promotion as well.

ah - then we'll see...

[gcdcfc28]

And yes, finances do matter.

So why gives the likes of Savage and Miles Addison contract extensions? I can't understand it at all.

If the wage bill is that tight and we have to balance the books; why did Clough decide on giving a 34 year old Robbie Savage another year - on 15,000 a week? That is close to 800,000 we spent on Savage in that single year, which could or rather [size=6]should [/size]have been spent elsewhere.

[Purpleram]

Because as a manager he felt that was the right thing to do, you don't, obviously, but that was his choice. Remember at the time Clough had a hostile dressing room that knew they were mostly on the way out. Savage was probably the glue that kept them together.

[Duracell]

So why gives the likes of Savage and Miles Addison contract extensions? I can't understand it at all.

If the wage bill is that tight and we have to balance the books; why did Clough decide on giving a 34 year old Robbie Savage another year - on 15,000 a week? That is close to 800,000 we spent on Savage in that single year, which could or rather [size=6]should [/size]have been spent elsewhere.

It was a mistake and I never agreed with it and still don't. It's not enough for me to think Clough is the wrong man. Every manager has his favourites and thinks the face fits. I personally think it's no coincedence we've improved dramatically since.

Incidentally, Savage's contract extension reduced his wage, to £10,000 I think. Can't be sure but I know we took some off.

Addison was given a chance and in the end cost us little, because he was out on loan almost the entire time he was out-of-favour and was sold for a fee

[duncanjwitham]

Because Savage was on £25k a week for one year as it was - you can't claim we wasted £800k when we were committed to paying the majority of it already. The two years at £15k didn't cost us that much more, and meant we got an experienced midfielder for an extra season and had an extra £10k to spend on another player in the first season of those two. It probably covered Barker's wages for example. You can argue whether it was a bad decision or not, but there's a perfectly rational reason why the decision was made.

[Duracell]

Ah, I did get the figures wrong. Either way, we got it reduced.

[Hucknall Ram]

If someone can prove me wrong re wages of barker and Shackell, go for it.

And barring the Football Manager wages remark I posted yesterday, I don't see what is far from the truth to what I have posted 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wacko:' />

Still waiting for you to prove that you are right about Barker and Shackell wages

[Jourdan]

You've made a very unfair comparison. Losing your best players at Watford is one thing, taking over a side that is a minor improvement on the worst side this country has ever seen, kept up only by a player who is only fit for half a season (who we won't be able to afford to keep for long, by the way), and who are stupendously overpaid to be bad at football. Not just poor. Bad at football.

What staggers me is the extent to which people underestimate where we were. Administration is a better position to be in that where we were in January 2009. You can sell all your players and start again. We had 38 crap players, give or take a Hulse or Commons, contracted to this club. And they were all pr1cks, signed by two horrible men. Such a bad bunch that one player lept through a training ground window to leave them at the first opportunity...

And we expect "sucess" from this point? The side that got relegated from the Premier League WOULD have also finished bottom of the Championship, and yet when we came down, some fans were expecting more than a relegation fight. Which was funny, if anything.

Don't get me wrong though, we have seen failure. The 2010/11 season can't be described as anything other than a unmitigated disaster due to our terrible run after October, getting dumped out of the Cup by Crawley etc. Clough has an awful lot to answer for for that season. We've shown tactical naivety and some terrible, terrible showings in Cup competitions.

But, having said that, the league position last season wasn't a failure last season and was actually a good recovery from the season before, the Jewell era, and actually, from everything that's happened since George Burley left. A real sign that the culture at the club has changed. Remember Ssausagehorpe, Aston Villa, West Ham? Performances where the players either gave up at the first whistle or simply didn't look bothered. No more. We're often out-classed, yes, and still far too often for my liking - but that's to be expected given our budget. When a club like Derby or Dyche's Watford or Peterborough face Cardiff, Leicester, or Southampton on a good day, they will get beaten. They just will, and it doesn't matter what anyone does.

And, when all is said and done - we're twice as good as we were when Clough took over, and the squad is paid half as much. And paid less than most of this league, and some from the league below too.

I would have sacked Clough after the Crawley game. Or the Ssausagehorpe game. I would have been wrong. The board's unchallenged and unfazed loyalty to Clough should be admired, whatever your views on Clough, and it has always given me this acute feeling that the owners know something that I don't.

Duracell,

Your point about us being in the worst position imaginable on Clough's arrival really doesn't hold much weight.

Sunderland twice finished with the record lowest points total in top-flight history but remind me how long did it take before they recovered and were competitive in the Championship? Oh that's right, they finished in the play-offs in 2003-04, went up as champions in 2004-05 and champions again in 2006-07.

Why has it taken us four seasons to even break into the top half, where Sunderland recovered much quicker not once but TWICE? Considerable investment you could argue. But good management would be much more fitting.

For you to suggest that the club being in adminstration would have been a better position for Clough to walk into three years ago is equally outrageous.

We were in no danger of relegation, only falling well short of Jewell's promotion guarantee, so Clough came in with no discernible pressure whatsoever, especially given his relative inexperience at this level, and that still remains the case today. I think given that teams have been relegated to League One, come back up and got promoted to the Premier League while we've been dwindling for all these years shows that in fact we've been remarkably patient.

I will give you one thing, the culture at the club has changed. Downright mediocrity is now championed because it has coincided with a period of stability because obviously when Clough is no longer manager, the club will go in absolute meltdown.

[gcdcfc28]

Still waiting for you to prove that you are right about Barker and Shackell wages

I never said I was right..? I said I bet I'm not that far off with the figures posted.

If you can find me evidence I'm miles part, like I said "go for it".

[Asanovic]

Duracell,

Your point about us being in the worst position imaginable on Clough's arrival really doesn't hold much weight.

Sunderland twice finished with the record lowest points total in top-flight history but remind me how long did it take before they recovered and were competitive in the Championship? Oh that's right, they finished in the play-offs in 2003-04, went up as champions in 2004-05 and champions again in 2006-07.

Why has it taken us four seasons to even break into the top half, where Sunderland recovered much quicker not once but TWICE? Considerable investment you could argue. But good management would be much more fitting.

For you to suggest that the club being in adminstration would have been a better position for Clough to walk into three years ago is equally outrageous.

We were in no danger of relegation, only falling well short of Jewell's promotion guarantee, so Clough came in with no discernible pressure whatsoever, especially given his relative inexperience at this level, and that still remains the case today. I think given that teams have been relegated to League One, come back up and got promoted to the Premier League while we've been dwindling for all these years shows that in fact we've been remarkably patient.

I will give you one thing, the culture at the club has changed. Downright mediocrity is now championed because it has coincided with a period of stability because obviously when Clough is no longer manager, the club will go in absolute meltdown.

Did you watch the game yesterday? Didn't seem too mediocre to me.

[Hucknall Ram]

I never said I was right..? I said I bet I'm not that far off with the figures posted.

If you can find me evidence I'm miles part, like I said "go for it".

No you prove that you are "not that far off with the figures posted"

[gcdcfc28]

you can't claim we wasted £800k

Yes I can and yes we did, we wasted nearly a million quid on a past it has-been, when there were much (much) better options out there.

It freed up 8k for a new player to join (on loan), whoopie! If Savage had left the club his wages would have freed up to 4 or 5 players worth (if spent wisely) - if of course Clough had used his loaf.

How can you justify the Addison decision? t'was another stupid mistake by Clough, which again backfired. Clough surely saw Addison in training often enough to come to the conclusion if He was good enough or not, obviously Clough believed He was good enough otherwise why would He have got him to commit his future to DCFC? Again a complete waste of wages, when anyone with two eyeballs could tell you Addison wasn't the same player.

How many players has He signed and either flogged them after realising they were utter garbage or because He's had a falling out with them? I can name over half a dozen at the top of my head: Cywka, Bywater Martin, Moxey, Porter, Maguire, Addison, Bailey, Robinson (He'll be off soon).

If they ain't good enough, why chase them for weeks on end? Or sign them to 3 year contracts? The best one was Bywater, accoutring to Nigel; He was good enough for England at one point (cannot type that with a straight face), only two weeks later was farmed out on loan and never seen again.

[Mr Tibbs]

Duracell,

Your point about us being in the worst position imaginable on Clough's arrival really doesn't hold much weight.

Sunderland twice finished with the record lowest points total in top-flight history but remind me how long did it take before they recovered and were competitive in the Championship? Oh that's right, they finished in the play-offs in 2003-04, went up as champions in 2004-05 and champions again in 2006-07.

Why has it taken us four seasons to even break into the top half, where Sunderland recovered much quicker not once but TWICE? Considerable investment you could argue. But good management would be much more fitting.

'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> That last sentance wouldn't last 2 minutes on a Sunderland forum mate, sorry.

If you think Roy Keane is a good manager then fair play, each to their own and all that but go visit the red and white half of the north east and you'll find a large majority disagreeing with you.

In my opinion it's another bad comparison on this thread. How much did Sunderland spend during their promotion seasons, especially the second promotion season.

If our board had gave Nige a warchest and unlimited budgets for wages then i'd agree, so far from though.

Alot of people forget about the shape we were in squad wise when we came down, Sunderland came down with good players aswell as the cash. We came down with the worst squad i've ever seen in my life, on massive wages that needed shifting due to the lack of investment.

[smiffy]

You're obsessed with this name thing mate. We've been here 1000 times.

Just as much as your obsessed in thinking it has made no difference.

Any other club, any other team and he would have been gone, fact.

Its one of the reasons why I did not want him in the first place, it was bound to happen.

Talking about obsessions, what about the people on here, we win one game, are SEVEN points behind last season, and we are going to be promoted.

[Hucknall Ram]

The best one was Bywater, accoutring to Nigel; He was good enough for England at one point (cannot type that with a straight face), only two weeks later was farmed out on loan and never seen again.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1239104/Nigel-Clough-backing-Derby-star-Stephen-Bywater-solve-Fabio-Capellos-England-keeper-crisis.html

Clough was suggesting if he kept up the current form and other Keepers getting we could get called up.

then left on loan 2 months after those comments not 2 weeks

[Mr Tibbs]

Talking about obsessions, what about the people on here, we win one game, are SEVEN points behind last season, and we are going to be promoted.

Why don't you and others complain when the boots on the other foot and we're 3 games in without a win and heading for relegation apparently?

I know every club has a bunch of morbid, doom-wishing wristslashers but this one is so bad for 'um. Too many glass half empty types. The amount of relegation, board out, clough out, tits out threads to the one promotion thread is unbelievable. What about that obsession?

[Hucknall Ram]

tits out threads

Can't see your problem? 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ph34r' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':ph34r:' />

[gcdcfc28]

No you prove that you are "not that far off with the figures posted"

Someone at Heanor Supporters Club attended a recent meeting with Glick and other backroom staff. Ask why Shackell was sold and Glick said the wages would allow us to bring in "atleast" 2 new players and a much younger defender in.

If someone else went to this meeting, they'd confirm this. So surely Shackell was on high wages especially if it paid for the arrival of three other players?

Coutts, Keogh, O'Connor signed shortly afterwards coincidently..

[Duracell]

Duracell,

Your point about us being in the worst position imaginable on Clough's arrival really doesn't hold much weight.

Sunderland twice finished with the record lowest points total in top-flight history but remind me how long did it take before they recovered and were competitive in the Championship? Oh that's right, they finished in the play-offs in 2003-04, went up as champions in 2004-05 and champions again in 2006-07.

Why has it taken us four seasons to even break into the top half, where Sunderland recovered much quicker not once but TWICE? Considerable investment you could argue. But good management would be much more fitting.

For you to suggest that the club being in adminstration would have been a better position for Clough to walk into three years ago is equally outrageous.

We were in no danger of relegation, only falling well short of Jewell's promotion guarantee, so Clough came in with no discernible pressure whatsoever, especially given his relative inexperience at this level, and that still remains the case today. I think given that teams have been relegated to League One, come back up and got promoted to the Premier League while we've been dwindling for all these years shows that in fact we've been remarkably patient.

I will give you one thing, the culture at the club has changed. Downright mediocrity is now championed because it has coincided with a period of stability because obviously when Clough is no longer manager, the club will go in absolute meltdown.

Sunderland came down and rebuilt well. That's why they went up.They never signed two teams' worth of players who were arguably no better than the crap which took them down, and they still had a better team anyway.

Derby's promotion season was nothing short of bizarre. We were probably the worst team to finish 3rd in the Championship and were propelled there by a decent run in Winter. The whole season, we only looked better than the teams we played a handful of times, and the seeds were sewn for the next few years at Derby County with the terrible batch of players brought in in January 2007. Not only were they bad players, they destroyed the dressing room, and in truth the squad never recovered over the fall-out regarding promotion bonuses.

Sunderland had record low points in the top fight, but we took "worst ever" to an absolute new level. Sunderland set top-flight records but if you look at English football records, we share all the bad ones with two other clubs. Doncaster Rovers have set a few in the Third Division, and Loughborough AFC had so many they don't even exist any more (although, somewhat tragically, our Derby side managed to nick a few off them, something Sunderland failed to achieve).

In English football - a game which began when Queen Victoria was still alive and we still owned a quarter of the globe, and has seen two world wars and the invention of HD television, spanning three centuries and two millenia in the process - Paul Jewell's Derby County went the most games without a win, and only one day short of an entire year. 38. A whole Premier League season.

However miserably bad Sunderland's teams were, I am afraid we were in a league of our own. I don't think any team in all five divisions will ever be so hopelessly poor. I hope not. I wouldn't wish it on any football fan (apart from Leeds of Forest, of course...).

We had a honeymoon period following our fortunate home win over Sheffield United on Sky which ended that run, but by December, boy was the disease back again. We were 18th and dropping like a stone. I went to Charlton away where we stole a fortunate point from the only side worse than us that year, but Paul Jewell still looked defeated, and the whole team did. I remember the camera focussing on Powell's face after another defensive howler which allowed Waghorn to score, showing absolute shell-shock. The commentators mentioned how vivid the image was, his eyes showing his mind elsewhere. If there was ever a picture of a club in crisis, that was it, if Paul Jewell cowardly sunk into his zipped-up coat wasn't enough for anyone already.

So in January 2009, we were in a very different position to the Sunderland sides with new managers who had rebuilt well and remembered how to win again. Good management was the difference, I agree, not investment - if anything, Jewell spent more. But it was Jewell who was the bad manager. The man who was in no mental state to manage us, and whose only redeeming grace is that he didn't do it intentionally.

A Clough honeymoon saved us from the drop and it was nothing he did to keep us up over than new-manager syndrome. The next season, we did well to improve. The season after was a bitter dissapointment. Last season was a good recovery.

But our situation was entirely unique and extremely difficult, and if there was a list of the ten most difficult jobs in 134 years of Engish football, then Derby County January 2009 is right up there with me.

People talk about Clough being the wrong appointment as if anyone else with an actual brain cell would have been stupid enough to risk their career on a job which obviously had no on-pitch success on the cards for years, unless they were allowed to take us down and back up again.

[Duracell]

If they ain't good enough, why chase them for weeks on end? Or sign them to 3 year contracts? The best one was Bywater, accoutring to Nigel; He was good enough for England at one point (cannot type that with a straight face), only two weeks later was farmed out on loan and never seen again.

Two weeks?! Please prove that there was this amount of time between the two.

You have conveniently forgotten the dramatic drop in form, the undermining tweets, and the alleged fake injury inbetween. Things advanced very quickly in the spacee of two weeks....