BaaLocks

It's a really interesting juxtaposition, the mentality of people from east and west. It feels like the distrust is almost equal. Without living in that culture it's impossible to fully see how the other group think. 
Western democracy is heralded as something to aspire to, yet I see plenty of problems caused by it. I still see it as a "better" system than Russia adopted, but if I'd lived 50 years in Russia/USSR I can imagine that I might have a different opinion. 
I can't accept Russian imperialism without feeling discomfort for the rights of the Ukrainian people. But I also can feel sympathy for the culturally Russian areas of Ukraine that feel more closely with the Russian state. 
I don't know what the best course of action is, but appeasement feels like a mistake. In the name of reducing casualties? Why did we not accept the Taliban in Afghanistan, that would have saved lives? 
I know the west is highly hypocritical in the way it deals with intervention into foreign affairs, and there's plenty of opposition amongst the people to invasions such as Iraq. I also see the double standards with regards to self determination for states when we can deny some groups autonomy but arm the population of others to defend theirs. It's not a defense to the actions of Russia to point out what the US have done in the past. 8
And the EU looks more and more appealing to me, as a solid safety net against Russian imperialism. Why wouldn't Ukraine apply now? Russia can't use the threat of invasion to prevent it. 

Excellent point, and you are 100% right in what you say. Yet, at least in modern Russia, there is no large scale clamouring for it - the people are happy to live under the trade in the same way they are in most of China.
There also hasn't been in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan yet Americans and the West push for it under the flag of 'manifest destiny'. Our belief that we have the say on how other countries rule themselves is at the heart of almost all conflicts in the last 50 years.

There has never been a democracy in Russia or Soviet Union.

I'm not sure too many buy this "it's not gone very well in the first 96 hours" story. This is a country the size of France, if Russia wanted to take it lock, stock and barrel in that time it would have need a blitzkrieg style attack - which it clearly has not taken. The 40 mile convoy on it's way to Kyiv at the moment - however - looks like the start of that. It feels like an attempt to do this with minimal casualties has not resulted in Ukraine surrendering weakly so a much more fierce conflict is now being readied.
On this point I will offer a view. Zelensky should surrender now, move for a semi-autonomous republic style of rule, resign and save thousands of lives. There is simply no way they can win this war and all it will do is line the streets with the blood of Ukranians and Russians. It's horrible for them, but the only way for him to save the lives of his people now is to end this quickly. Then, in the years to come, push for more independent powers but play the long game and don't play the hero of my people role. Not easy, but the path of least bloodshed and escalation.

I think you've failed to understand Russian people and their history plus the situation/events in East Ukraine if you think he's saying that. 
It's that failure to recognise that history and the tie between the two nations (and other Soviet states) by America and its allies that has antagonised Russia. I think it's widely believed they failed to recognise it on purpose and aggressively pursued securing these areas. 
It's a bit like messing with an aggressive dog. If the dog bites and its in the wrong... you're still bitten. 
I'm not suggesting you give into this particular dog either. 

In  an actual sentence you haven't. But from reading some of your posts, that the conclusion I've come to.
And thankyou for all the fun.

Well done Liz Truss. 
You've got people going out there to earn tiktok follows now. Oh, I mean fight. 
I'm sure they'll be able to tell the difference between one Slav and the next. I'm sure they'll know how to work under extreme stress, possibly operate and maintain weapons. No problem with the language being able to read or communicate. And then there's the matter of insurance for death, injuries etc. 
Wonder if they'll feel good about the fine work of Ukraine's Azov Batalion. Or how they're prepared to be taken prisoner by Russian forces. 
Excellent work Liz. Up there with 
"We'll cut them off at the knees" and suggestions that this is the start of a bigger war with Europe/NATO. 
Is it not enough that Russia is reacting to security threats and conflict in Crimea and Donbas by mounting a full scale assault on Ukraine. Is that not enough truth? 
Does she have to play the whole new Hitler angle. 
Go free citizens of the world. Go to Ukraine and fight for NATO so that NATO doesn't break their treaties officially

It matters a lot, if you go back about 15 pages you will see me suggesting that I don't consider Putin a despot (let's not, we've done it to death) but that was part of my rationale. The Russian people are important to him and up until now he has enjoyed significant popularity - indeed this could well be the first time in his tenure where he is likely to feel a significant groundswell of opposition (Navalny, Nemtsov, Yavlinsky were all irritations - and yes, we all know what happened to two of those - but not really a threat).
It could, to your earlier point, lead to disillusionment in the armed forces but more importantly there are civil fissures that could erupt at any time. Chechnya is no longer a large concern, due to the funding it now receives (ifyou are interested Google images of Grozny, it is like Las Vegas now) but Dagestan, Ossetia and others could see this as opportunity to re-open previous conflicts.
Which is why I repeat, the people pulling the strings at the moment don't understand half of what are the implications of their potential actions. All through the Cold War the one thing that was avoided was destabilisation of Russia, a power vacuum there is potentially catastrpohic for us all. And no, before anyone piles on, that is not me saying let Ukraine fall to prevent that - I'm just saying that is a potential consequence of what has been put in motion on all sides. But there will be little sympathy to prevent it given the sort of tweets and information shared earlier in this thread.

As your namesake would say - we managed it for a good few years. Off topic, but even this thread needs a smile.
 

It matters a lot, if you go back about 15 pages you will see me suggesting that I don't consider Putin a despot (let's not, we've done it to death) but that was part of my rationale. The Russian people are important to him and up until now he has enjoyed significant popularity - indeed this could well be the first time in his tenure where he is likely to feel a significant groundswell of opposition (Navalny, Nemtsov, Yavlinsky were all irritations - and yes, we all know what happened to two of those - but not really a threat).
It could, to your earlier point, lead to disillusionment in the armed forces but more importantly there are civil fissures that could erupt at any time. Chechnya is no longer a large concern, due to the funding it now receives (ifyou are interested Google images of Grozny, it is like Las Vegas now) but Dagestan, Ossetia and others could see this as opportunity to re-open previous conflicts.
Which is why I repeat, the people pulling the strings at the moment don't understand half of what are the implications of their potential actions. All through the Cold War the one thing that was avoided was destabilisation of Russia, a power vacuum there is potentially catastrpohic for us all. And no, before anyone piles on, that is not me saying let Ukraine fall to prevent that - I'm just saying that is a potential consequence of what has been put in motion on all sides. But there will be little sympathy to prevent it given the sort of tweets and information shared earlier in this thread.

A national TV reporter obtained an interview with the Russian ambassador to Iceland Mikhaíl V. Noskov and loosely translated said this:  You live in a western society and follow discussions there, do you think anyone outside of Russia will believe your claim of there being actual Nazis in Ukraine?  Mr Noskov appeared stunned and replied with something along the lines of well you are free to believe what you like.
To give an idea of the hysterics at play locally, an online newspaper had a question for readers a few hours later.  Should the Russian ambassador be kicked out of Iceland?  84% answered yes.  Emotions be king, thought matters not.

There was the continuation war of 1941 to 44 too. @Cisse on here (from Finland) has been saying for years that Putin keeps threatening Finland.

True....but you can say that about most countries really.  The US for example....there is that bit that won it's independence from Britain, the part that was bought from France...the parts stolen from Native Americans (arguably all of it), the part annexed from Mexico, the part bought from Spain, the part annexed from Pacific Islanders, the part bought from Russia against Canada's consent.  And a similar story could be told for pretty much every country.  Nations, borders and nationalities are all made up really.  They are important for our sense of identity sure...but we shouldn't forget that they are all largely a figment of our collective imaginations. In this Ukraine is no different from other countries, so I can't see how Putin can use the fact to legitimize an invasion.  Although you might be right in thinking that's part of his mindset.

Which bit of Ukraine are you referring to that was defining it's own futher? The part given to the Ukranian Soviet Socialist Republic as a present from Khruschev in the Soviet times? The bit added on by Stalin when taken from Hungary? The part from Poland? Or the part that joined on the break up of the Austro-Hungarian empire? Or maybe the islands 'given' to Ukraine by Romania?
I don't debate Ukraine has been invaded but if you think it has been a homogenous state with clear borders defined by the ages then I'm sorry to disabuse you of that opinion. It doesn't make the invasion right but it does help understand the thinking of those who also have claim to it - the same way both the UK and Argentina have claim to the Falklands, the way Mauritius and UK have claim to the Chagos islands, the way Spain and UK both believe Gibraltar is theirs. Nobody is at war over those, I grant you, but they are disputed and the world is not so simple that every corner of the world is clearly defined.

No, not seen that but thx for the link. Tim Marshall's Prisoners Of Geography is a good read on this, various parts of the world analyzed in short chapters that even someone with my limited attention span can manage. Well worth it.

Oh my god, it's like you've not read the thread at all
No justification on anything. I'm bored of saying it. I'm saying civilian deaths are part of war. There are videos of Ukranian/Russian civilians being killed by Ukranian civilian militias. There are no clean wars. 
I didn't call you a troll, did I? I'm 100% sure I didn't 
Must have condemned the invasion a hundred times. 
It's like you've joined a debate and caught the end of it but not interested in what has previously been posted in regards to NATO expansion, western hypocrisy, the actions in East Ukraine.
Nobody approved the invasion. But there is some debate on whether Putin has a right to feel threatened and whether he's served Russian people well. 
There are comparisons to be made to how the west reacts to "threats on freedom" to put Putin's position into context. Not to support his invasion
It's all in the thread. You can come in stamping your size 10's pretending stuff has been said that hasn't. 
I pointed out Western and American killing civilians because there are no wars where innocents don't suffer. That's it. That's war. Whether I agree with the war or not is not even relevant since I only responded to your point on the Russians killing Ukranian civilians. 
I've seen a video of 2 Ukranian guys dragging a civilian out of a car and beating him then shooting him dead? Does that reflect on Ukraine? No, that's what happens in war because its a great opportunity for scum of every race and religion to commit crimes too

FWIW I think we've all been playing nicely - even when disagreeing on stuff. I'm glad the topic was approved as I've read a lot of interesting viewpoints that I otherwise wouldn't have thought about. 
But you're right - it does feel like frightening times

I am now thinking this subject isn't right for a football forum. I fully understand @David's reticence.
Thousands of people are dying. I have composed some long responses to posters based on my own knowledge -  stared at them - and deleted. 
This is the most dangerous moment I have witnessed in my lifetime. I don't want to arguing with FunkyRam819 as Norwich goes up in smoke.
 

So it seems to be a bunch of rich men in Russia want the old soviet ways back. Similar to trump really, and make America great again. This is just make Russia great again.
even brexit was a version of make Britain great again.
But I think the younger generations don’t care about that. That’s clear from the general demographics that voted for brexit and trump. And I think it’s true in Russia, based on who’s protesting the war. 
russians have had it pretty good in the past 20-odd years, so why would a 20 something Russian feel the need to rock the boat. They’re not particularly loving life now, and it’s not the west they’re blaming. 
sometimes I genuinely feel the only way this world will get better is when we wait for the older generations, with their historical prejudices and axes to grind, and rose tinted memories of when it was all better, to shuffle off this mortal coil, and leave it to the kids to sort out. 
In fact, you probably shouldn’t get a vote, or work in politics, after a certain age, because you’re making decisions on long term things that won’t effect you half as much as it will effect your kids. 

There is no legitimate reason. As there isn't when it's the blood on America and their allies hands. None at all. That's the most tragic cost of any war. 
Hundreds of thousands of civilians died in Iraq. Thousands of them to Coalition forces. 
Politics failed and now the cost is war. 
America disregards life quite freely at times.  Hard to believe maybe but I think Russia has shown restraint in it's attack. 
I know you're going to show me pictures of "Russian restraint" buy I'm talking about in the context of yet another unnecessary (imo) war. 
The only defence of Putin you will see here is focused on what surrounds the war in Ukraine. There's been a couple of trolls suggesting people are apologising for Putin or justifying the war. But I'm fairly confident they don't even believe that themselves. 
 
 

I'm not sure too many buy this "it's not gone very well in the first 96 hours" story. This is a country the size of France, if Russia wanted to take it lock, stock and barrel in that time it would have need a blitzkrieg style attack - which it clearly has not taken. The 40 mile convoy on it's way to Kyiv at the moment - however - looks like the start of that. It feels like an attempt to do this with minimal casualties has not resulted in Ukraine surrendering weakly so a much more fierce conflict is now being readied.
On this point I will offer a view. Zelensky should surrender now, move for a semi-autonomous republic style of rule, resign and save thousands of lives. There is simply no way they can win this war and all it will do is line the streets with the blood of Ukranians and Russians. It's horrible for them, but the only way for him to save the lives of his people now is to end this quickly. Then, in the years to come, push for more independent powers but play the long game and don't play the hero of my people role. Not easy, but the path of least bloodshed and escalation.

Because he has been in power for twenty one years and has not yet set up anything like this in his own country nor once indicated that this is his intent. If our reaction is not in line with the threat, note comments made by Liz Truss, it will incite further escalation.
My point with Putin, and indeed anyone, is that instead of all the bombast we should be sitting down with him and asking "why did you feel the need to do this?" Call me what you want but surely that has to be the point of departure, understanding why people act as they do and then build around that - not for appeasement but for understanding. Threats and challenge are the last thing that will solve this crisis.

Fair point, and you could also argue Trump made progress in North Korea because he gave them time to sit and listen. Trump had a relationship with Putin, for obvious reasons, and if Johnson was a more credible candidate (and I recognise I have said that in relation to Donald Trump) he could have played that role given there is clearly influence in place between Russia and the Tory party. Trump was always careful to offer the hand of reconciliation alongside his threats, both Reagan and Thatcher did the same. We're all humans at the end of the day, we just want to know we have been heard.
Of course, it's a fair claim that Putin would only use it as further opportunity to twist the end game - maybe fair point. But the view of many Russians is that whatever they do there are sanctions, whatever they offer there is distrust, wherever they look they see the West doing the very same thing in their own backyard that they are accused of themselves. And let's not forget that in the past 20 years Russia has had one incursion in Georgia (plus involvement in Syria) - in the same time US has either directly invaded or supported military action in Afghanistan, Nepal, Maghreb, Somalia, Iraq, Pakistan, Libya, Uganda, Syria, Libya and Iran (yes, I did Google that). But it's always OK and understood for America to do it in the name of world peace.
So what to do in that situation? Sit back and pretend it isn't happening or fight fire with fire?

Interesting stuff trending on French media/tinternet. Interview of the then prime minister in 2018 (Edouard Philippe) when asked a Q he replied perhaps in 5 years time i will be asked about not spending more on medical research and a virus has appeared no one knows about or our defence budget when Russia has invaded Poland.
He might have got the country wrong (for the time being i guess) but his crystal ball is pretty impressive!

Maybe some sat around the same table as Putin might be but, as ever, not everyone is that extreme. What I think the likes of @Alpha were trying to say (and maybe myself) is that the West has engaged on a programme of meddling, intrusion and inconsistent support and decision making in Russia and the broader region for more than 30 years and that has frustrated Putin to the point he feels (again perception is everything) he has no choice.