duncanjwitham

Agree with all this - although Morris trying to gain an advantage is fine. It’s gaining an unfair advantage that’s a problem. A fine point, but important in the face of being accused of “systematic cheating over the course of years”. 
 
Hopefully this will be resolved soon. 

I think the problem with comments like this, is we genuinely have no idea how much of it's true.  Everybody is briefing their own pet journalists with their side of the story, when the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Take the drone thing - do I think Morris had a drone installed purely to spy on training? Probably not. Do I think the club spent a bunch of money on a drone system to record training for analysis by the coaches afterwards? Quite possibly. Do I think Morris watched some of that footage from time to time, and maybe even liked to chat to the manager about it? Quite possibly. Is that all that wrong, not reeeeeally.
Fundamentally, the problem for me was that Morris doesn't know that much about football, certainly no more than the average fan does. That's not really meant to be a criticism, I don't think any of us know that much about the actual mechanics of managing a football team because we aren't football managers or qualified coaches, or whatever.  But I suspect he's also a bit of a micromanager - he likes to get very involved in the business he's running. So you have the unfortunate combo of someone spending lots of money making decisions that they aren't really qualified to make.  That's why we had the random lurches between styles of managers, and that's what led to stupid decisions like renewing the contract of a striker who's currently scoring goals for a rival.

I think the problem with comments like this, is we genuinely have no idea how much of it's true.  Everybody is briefing their own pet journalists with their side of the story, when the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Take the drone thing - do I think Morris had a drone installed purely to spy on training? Probably not. Do I think the club spent a bunch of money on a drone system to record training for analysis by the coaches afterwards? Quite possibly. Do I think Morris watched some of that footage from time to time, and maybe even liked to chat to the manager about it? Quite possibly. Is that all that wrong, not reeeeeally.
Fundamentally, the problem for me was that Morris doesn't know that much about football, certainly no more than the average fan does. That's not really meant to be a criticism, I don't think any of us know that much about the actual mechanics of managing a football team because we aren't football managers or qualified coaches, or whatever.  But I suspect he's also a bit of a micromanager - he likes to get very involved in the business he's running. So you have the unfortunate combo of someone spending lots of money making decisions that they aren't really qualified to make.  That's why we had the random lurches between styles of managers, and that's what led to stupid decisions like renewing the contract of a striker who's currently scoring goals for a rival.

Which is the red card?

Pedantic I know but I get properly upset with it. 
Always talking about what the club means to The City. 
Derby COUNTY
We're here too.......

But isn't that the point? We had a bidder based on what we understood the rules to be (we could basically reject the Boro and Wycombe claims). The EFL then said 'We won't accept this, you need to address those claims, and (at least) get your bidder to take on any future liability.'
Hey presto, we don't have a bidder. Because even if we could legally proceed, the bidder won't buy if they are going to get kicked out of the league for breaking these newly-revealed rules.

Not just QPR. If we get taken over with the arbitration still to come, I would immediately file claims against literally everyone we could possibly have the slightest grievance with - QPR, Villa, Bournemouth, Leicester, anyone.  Tell those clubs that we will drop those claims the second we are cleared over 'Boro and Wycombe, but if we aren't cleared, we will have no choice but to proceed. Make it crystal clear to the LAP what the consequences of allowing those decisions would be. 

Not just QPR. If we get taken over with the arbitration still to come, I would immediately file claims against literally everyone we could possibly have the slightest grievance with - QPR, Villa, Bournemouth, Leicester, anyone.  Tell those clubs that we will drop those claims the second we are cleared over 'Boro and Wycombe, but if we aren't cleared, we will have no choice but to proceed. Make it crystal clear to the LAP what the consequences of allowing those decisions would be. 

Not just QPR. If we get taken over with the arbitration still to come, I would immediately file claims against literally everyone we could possibly have the slightest grievance with - QPR, Villa, Bournemouth, Leicester, anyone.  Tell those clubs that we will drop those claims the second we are cleared over 'Boro and Wycombe, but if we aren't cleared, we will have no choice but to proceed. Make it crystal clear to the LAP what the consequences of allowing those decisions would be. 

But the EFL have the right to kick the club out of the league if they don't approve of the bidder/exit-plan, so even if they don't have the legal right to prevent a bidder being named, they certainly have the de facto right.

Not just QPR. If we get taken over with the arbitration still to come, I would immediately file claims against literally everyone we could possibly have the slightest grievance with - QPR, Villa, Bournemouth, Leicester, anyone.  Tell those clubs that we will drop those claims the second we are cleared over 'Boro and Wycombe, but if we aren't cleared, we will have no choice but to proceed. Make it crystal clear to the LAP what the consequences of allowing those decisions would be. 

Not just QPR. If we get taken over with the arbitration still to come, I would immediately file claims against literally everyone we could possibly have the slightest grievance with - QPR, Villa, Bournemouth, Leicester, anyone.  Tell those clubs that we will drop those claims the second we are cleared over 'Boro and Wycombe, but if we aren't cleared, we will have no choice but to proceed. Make it crystal clear to the LAP what the consequences of allowing those decisions would be. 

Not just QPR. If we get taken over with the arbitration still to come, I would immediately file claims against literally everyone we could possibly have the slightest grievance with - QPR, Villa, Bournemouth, Leicester, anyone.  Tell those clubs that we will drop those claims the second we are cleared over 'Boro and Wycombe, but if we aren't cleared, we will have no choice but to proceed. Make it crystal clear to the LAP what the consequences of allowing those decisions would be. 

Throughout this crisis, Derby fans have never lost their sense of humour. Even more encouraging to discover that Forest fans still haven’t found theirs.

Not sure how the stadium is factoring in to things here, but even a club like Brentford are reliant on owner investment and player sales to function.

Sage there is a document I can’t fully access at the mo - Notice of Administrators Proposals - registered at Companies House in November. The MSD debt was £20m, and is owed by the Club. Page 43 and 45, and other pages of that document confirm it. Morris structured the deal in a way that the Club does indeed owe the money, but offered supporting security of the stadium, which is owned by Gellaw Newco 202, and ultimately owned by Morris via his holding company Gellaw Newco 204. So your first two statements are not correct. You are more correct regarding your third statement - a new owner can buy the ground, subject to the security (if MSD agree and the debt is transferred) or if the MSD debt is repaid.
@PistoldPete as to your point, it would seem that Binnie’s proposal only works on the basis that he as the Club and MSD renegotiate that debt over a longer term, still cross secured by Morris/Gellaw/Stadium during that period, until such time as Binnie/the Club buys back the Stadium from Morris/Gellaw, when MSD would probably be repaid in full. Binnie/the Club will presumably service the MSD debt until that point from moneys that might otherwise be due payable to Morris/Gellaw under the terms of the lease. All messy, but doable if all parties are agreed, and MSD effectively stay any claim for repayment until sometime after administration is finalised/Binnie takes control.

 

@kevinhectoring @duncanjwitham @davenportram thanks for your posts late yesterday. Appreciated.
I had seen the BAWT minutes, but did skim through them whilst working, but had not seen Morris had agreed to grant a purchase option on the stadium post-Administration. Perhaps I am blind to anything good Morris might do ??
That does make the Binnie offer more workable, as presumably the offer of £28m has been made on the assumption that MSD will be (100%) happy to accept an extended term loan on the current debt, cross supported still by personal guarantee and third party stadium security from Mel and Gellaw, confirmed football debtors will get 100%, and HMRC and unsecured creditors 25% each, all under a CVA arrangement. The EFL also  can retain their tenuous hold on the arbitration claims being contingent football creditors.
The above said, I personally still would like to see a deal proceed where we get the stadium back now, Morris is consigned to the waste bin of football history, and the EFL and Gibson crushed in a Court of Law. 3 points today would be the cherry on top.

It could be that, or it could just be that the stadium is a separate transaction.  In theory, there's no reason it would be included in what you pay for Derby, since it's not owned by Derby. But obviously the MSD debt complicates things.

So the working theory is, that your owner is trying to force the liquidation of a founding member of the league, entirely because he has a personal issue with a previous owner of the club.   Surely that's the point where the right-minded fans start thinking, maybe our owner is in the wrong here, maybe he's more than a little unhinged, right? Right?

It’s from here… (whenever you’re in the mood to look ?)
 

It’s probably because the news today has got me in a good mood, but it does feel like there a fairly wide range of acceptable outcomes here. It we take the admins at their word, both Mel and MSD are being reasonable about things. So anything from a straight up purchase of the stadium and clearing of all secured debts, to maybe something like a guaranteed long-term, low-cost lease from Mel, with the club covering interest on the MSD loan until the club makes a purchase, seems achievable and workable.

The only thing I’d say is, any bidder must have *some* kind of plan to deal with the stadium and whatever is secured against it, or they wouldn’t be bidding. It can’t make any sense to buy the club, and then have e.g. the stadium repossessed or sold onto a 3rd party and the rent potentially jacked sky high. The success/profitability of them buying the club is utterly tied to being able to play at the stadium. And I don’t see anything involving something like forcing Mel to clear the MSD debt has any legs, because of the real risk of losing he stadium if he doesn’t.

The only thing I’d say is, any bidder must have *some* kind of plan to deal with the stadium and whatever is secured against it, or they wouldn’t be bidding. It can’t make any sense to buy the club, and then have e.g. the stadium repossessed or sold onto a 3rd party and the rent potentially jacked sky high. The success/profitability of them buying the club is utterly tied to being able to play at the stadium. And I don’t see anything involving something like forcing Mel to clear the MSD debt has any legs, because of the real risk of losing he stadium if he doesn’t.

So the working theory is, that your owner is trying to force the liquidation of a founding member of the league, entirely because he has a personal issue with a previous owner of the club.   Surely that's the point where the right-minded fans start thinking, maybe our owner is in the wrong here, maybe he's more than a little unhinged, right? Right?

SlyncIO are Chris Kirchner's lot, aren't they? Interesting...