Messi....... Is he one of the Greatest ever players? Or do Barca make it seem so?

[Boycie]

Messi would disappear in the Prem, I think he needs a few more years in that Spanish league before he try's a competitive one.

[EastKentRam]

I want him to move to the PL to see how he does. He is the best player in the world, but he could only affirm and seal it by doing it in England. He is incredible though.

That argument is such bullsh*t, as if the English league is some benchmark to judge the best players. As if our league is superior to the other tops leagues in Europe.

[Duracell]

That argument is such bullsh*t, as if the English league is some benchmark to judge the best players. As if our league is superior to the other tops leagues in Europe.

Dunno mate, it's all very well and good playing well against Manchester United in a Champions League final, or Real Madrid in a La Liga title decider, but it counts for nowt unless you can play at Carrow Road on a Tuesday night in December.

[alexxxxx]

It is a team sport and barcelona without messi would easily win league titles and champions league titles, they have some of the best players in the world and pay them the most money in the world too to keep them there (don't believe the hype about man city, and RM, barcelona have the highest salaried players http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2012/05/01/revealed-the-worlds-best-paid-teams-man-city-close-in-on-barca-and-real-madrid-010501/). They have built an incredibly expensive team with the best players, so it makes sense that their best player is going to play at his best with the best players who have been selected and trained to play around him.

I think that Ronaldo is the better player (2 Champs Leagues with 2 teams - arguably not at his 'prime' either), yet I think Messi is the better performer - my view won't change until he changes teams and plays with different players. It doesn't have to be in England, if he sets the league alight in Italy or Germany breaking their records.

[Ambitious]

Messi is undoubtadly a fantastic player, one of the best ever.

You can never say who the best ever is though, players hit peaks, and some players have established careers. The difference between leagues is another huge factor, I've seen players move from country to country and have their reputation doubled, or crushed and playing for different teams.

If you was to build a team from through-out history on players on their peaks based on their actual raw ability to play the game, then I wonder what it would look like...

[Bris Vegas]

It is a team sport and barcelona without messi would easily win league titles and champions league titles, they have some of the best players in the world and pay them the most money in the world too to keep them there (don't believe the hype about man city, and RM, barcelona have the highest salaried players [url=http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2012/05/01/revealed-the-worlds-best-paid-teams-man-city-close-in-on-barca-and-real-madrid-010501/]http://www.sportingi...-madrid-010501/). They have built an incredibly expensive team with the best players, so it makes sense that their best player is going to play at his best with the best players who have been selected and trained to play around him.

I think that Ronaldo is the better player (2 Champs Leagues with 2 teams - arguably not at his 'prime' either), yet I think Messi is the better performer - my view won't change until he changes teams and plays with different players. It doesn't have to be in England, if he sets the league alight in Italy or Germany breaking their records.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but you have to remember that Messi did change Barcelona.. But along with many other factors.. He changed them from being an amazing team to arguably the best in history.. Ronaldo never changed Man Utd or Real Madrid, they were champions before him but obviously you'd rather have him in your team than not..

Once again, it really isn't important what league he plays in.. The CL has the best players in the world and he's been the best player in the tournament for 4 years running..

I feel for Ronaldo.. Because if Messi wasn't around he'd easily be number one in the world.. He'd win the Ballon d'Or 5 times running if not more.. But Messi is better than him at virtually ever attribute a footballer can have.. It's beyond a debate, there is no debate to be had, Messi is just superior and I think Ronaldo knows that.. That's probably the main reason that he's sad at Real Madrid because he's always in Messi's shadow what with the Spanish media always comparing the two.. It wouldn't suprise me if Ronaldo moved to somewhere like PSG just so he can be the top dog again..

[westbrom1404]

he could move here if the baggies grab 4th place....

'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ph34r' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':ph34r:' />

I wish, we need a winger ironically enough...speaking of the Albion, seems like or title challenge has evaporated for another year. Clarke out.

He doesn't need to though.. England offers him nothing..

The CL is the hardest competition in the world.. You can see that the best 2 teams in England have struggled bigtime over the past 2 seasons, Chelsea bought their way to 1 title in 8 years or something like that and Real Madrid despite having the most expensive team in history have yet to reach a final during the mad spending in 3 years..

Messi has already won it 3 times.. And he's been the top goalscorer in the competition for 4 years running and he's the record goalscorer in a single CL campaign..

He doesn't need to move anywhere.. As we've mentioned it's all about individual ability and he's already pitting himself against the worlds best in La Liga and the CL..

You only have to see his record against English clubs to know it doesn't make a difference.. In 4 games against Arsenal he scored 6 goals, he scored in back to back finals against Man Utd.. The only team he's failed to find the net against is Chelsea but that's mostly down to bad luck rather than really struggling.. Against the best Italian sides and German sides it hasn't affected him, he's continued to be the best player..

Your point is extremely valid, but still, I refer to Duracell's post in this reply. Its all well and good playing in these "glamour ties" where the whole world is watching. I'd just like to see him do it in England. We've seen players from La Liga coming to the PL to be a complete waste of time, now I know there has been a few good ones as well, the likes of Mata, Torres (earlier) and Aguero.

One example from the Albion is Borja Valero, who we signed in the last season we got relegated (the one where Newcastle and Middlesbrough got relegated). He was superb for the first few games, then he completely disappeared for the rest of the season. He went back on loan to La Liga and was player of the year, or close to it anyhow? After, the likes of Barca were linked to him for a short time.

This is all why I prefer Ronaldo, he's done it in both La Liga and the PL.

That argument is such bullsh*t, as if the English league is some benchmark to judge the best players. As if our league is superior to the other tops leagues in Europe.

Sorry but most players outside of England regard the PL as the best and hardest league. I don't think we are superior to others as much, but there is a definite change of mentality in ours.

Dunno mate, it's all very well and good playing well against Manchester United in a Champions League final, or Real Madrid in a La Liga title decider, but it counts for nowt unless you can play at Carrow Road on a Tuesday night in December.

My point summed up in a nutshell. 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

[Duracell]

I was actually being tongue-in-cheek 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unsure:' />

If you're the best player in the best league in the world making a mockery of Manchester United as well, why on earth do you have to prove you can play against Stoke? What if Paul Coutts plays a blinder in one game against Stoke, while Messi struggles? Does that make Coutts a better player?

Messi or any of the Barca team are not really comparable to Spanish flops in the Premier League. They're on a different level. Borja Valero is the Spanish equivalent of someone like Glen Whelan, who looks good here but would look worse than death in the Spanish league.

[Duracell]

I feel for Ronaldo.. Because if Messi wasn't around he'd easily be number one in the world.. He'd win the Ballon d'Or 5 times running if not more.. But Messi is better than him at virtually ever attribute a footballer can have.. It's beyond a debate, there is no debate to be had, Messi is just superior and I think Ronaldo knows that.. That's probably the main reason that he's sad at Real Madrid because he's always in Messi's shadow what with the Spanish media always comparing the two.. It wouldn't suprise me if Ronaldo moved to somewhere like PSG just so he can be the top dog again..

I don't feel sorry for Ronaldo. He's rich and good at football. He should smile. Messi is actually a very likeable human being, while Ronaldo has the sort of face you want to punch, with about two dozen good reasons to do so.

Neymar I do feel a little more sorry for. He might have the potential to be up there when he reaches his peak, but he's too close in age to Messi to ever be the best player in the world in my opinion. It's a tag Messi will always have from a significant number of people until the day he hangs up his boots, which is about a decade away. The player to take on his mantle is probably playing futsal for Santos or Barcelona as we speak and will go home and watch kids' TV with a Petit Filous.

[EastKentRam]

Sorry but most players outside of England regard the PL as the best and hardest league. I don't think we are superior to others as much, but there is a definite change of mentality in ours.

My point summed up in a nutshell. 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

And you know this how?

Most players that say it's the best are the ones trying to engineer a move here for a bigger wage packet.

[EastKentRam]

As mad as this sounds, i actually think Ronaldo is a bit over rated, i think Iniesta is better.

You see Ronaldo have some games where he doesnt do much, or games where he might score a couple but then does other equally bad. That game for Portugal in the Euros, cant remember who against, but he scored twice and was getting all the plaudits, but he gave the ball away countless time and missed some great opportunities, but cos he's Ronaldo people ignore the bad stuff. I've got no idea what the stats are on his free kicks, but for every one he scores, he must put about 50 into the wall or a mile over.

People who try to argue that Ronadlo is better than Messi simply dont understand football. You can watch Messi for 5 minutes and see he's got far more natural ability, the way he moves with the ball is soo much more fluent, he's just about ten times better. They shouldnt be compared, because there is no comparison. A better argument should be, who's better Iniesta or Ronaldo, cos i dont see why Iniesta doesnt get into the argument?

[Duracell]

As mad as this sounds, i actually think Ronaldo is a bit over rated, i think Iniesta is better.

You see Ronaldo have some games where he doesnt do much, or games where he might score a couple but then does other equally bad. That game for Portugal in the Euros, cant remember who against, but he scored twice and was getting all the plaudits, but he gave the ball away countless time and missed some great opportunities, but cos he's Ronaldo people ignore the bad stuff. I've got no idea what the stats are on his free kicks, but for every one he scores, he must put about 50 into the wall or a mile over.

People who try to argue that Ronadlo is better than Messi simply dont understand football. You can watch Messi for 5 minutes and see he's got far more natural ability, the way he moves with the ball is soo much more fluent, he's just about ten times better. They shouldnt be compared, because there is no comparison. A better argument should be, who's better Iniesta or Ronaldo, cos i dont see why Iniesta doesnt get into the argument?

I don't think it's mad at all, far from it. I think Will Hughes said on twitter that he rates Iniesta higher than Ronaldo. I agree with both of you.

I have this theory that the reason why we love players like Ronaldo so much in this country is due to our Match of the Day culture, in which the vast majority of fans watch 15 minute highlights. Ronaldo does something spectacular every game, and it's very easy to make him look comparable to Messi in extended highlights.

The same principle applies to Wilfred Zaha. Because some fans and some tabloid journalists reckon they're football scouts because they stay up to watch the Football League Show, they'll probably see Zaha do something pretty cool in 20 second highlights, and hey presto, he's a wonderkid worth £20m.

Most people in football would far sooner have Iniesta in their team than Ronaldo. He may not score spectacular free kicks, or 30-yard wondegoals every week, but that's because he's too busy unlocking defenders and finding some tiny Argentinian winger being marked by about 56 defenders. He's an integral part of two of the world's best teams, and take him out of either of them and they're arguably weakened more than the abscence of any other player. Iniesta doesn't make mistakes.

Who was the best English midfielder of the 2000s? Most fans will probably say Lampard or Gerard, despite their faults, but most involved in football would say Paul Scholes.

[Asanovic]

Messi - much the same as Guardiola as a manager. Great, one of the worlds best.

But to be THE worlds best, you need to do it on a different stage. Not necessarily PL, but somewhere else.

Clough Snr, Fergie, Shearer, Maradona, Mourinho - some of the games greatest ever players and managers. They've all, at one time or another, beaten the odds to win a title or a trophy. Messi hasn't had to do that yet.

I look at Messi and the stuff he does is just magical. But he doesn't look like he's being challenged. It's the same with Barca - it's almost a little tedious to watch at times, specially against teams lower down La Liga.

I'd love to see him in Italy against those stern defences. If he rips them apart and wins things, he'll get my vote.

[westbrom1404]

I was actually being tongue-in-cheek 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unsure:' />

If you're the best player in the best league in the world making a mockery of Manchester United as well, why on earth do you have to prove you can play against Stoke? What if Paul Coutts plays a blinder in one game against Stoke, while Messi struggles? Does that make Coutts a better player?

Messi or any of the Barca team are not really comparable to Spanish flops in the Premier League. They're on a different level. Borja Valero is the Spanish equivalent of someone like Glen Whelan, who looks good here but would look worse than death in the Spanish league.

Oops, looks like I'm on my own then.

I mean it as in could he do it in a normal 3pm kick off that isn't on television freezing cold in an away game against a crowd completely against him. As opposed to the Barcelona games which are always televised, all the attention on him, and fair enough he delivers. I'd just like to see him in a different position as he is now.

And you know this how?

Most players that say it's the best are the ones trying to engineer a move here for a bigger wage packet.

You can't say that for sure though.

As mad as this sounds, i actually think Ronaldo is a bit over rated, i think Iniesta is better.

You see Ronaldo have some games where he doesnt do much, or games where he might score a couple but then does other equally bad. That game for Portugal in the Euros, cant remember who against, but he scored twice and was getting all the plaudits, but he gave the ball away countless time and missed some great opportunities, but cos he's Ronaldo people ignore the bad stuff. I've got no idea what the stats are on his free kicks, but for every one he scores, he must put about 50 into the wall or a mile over.

People who try to argue that Ronadlo is better than Messi simply dont understand football. You can watch Messi for 5 minutes and see he's got far more natural ability, the way he moves with the ball is soo much more fluent, he's just about ten times better. They shouldnt be compared, because there is no comparison. A better argument should be, who's better Iniesta or Ronaldo, cos i dont see why Iniesta doesnt get into the argument?

Iniesta isn't rated as highly as Ronaldo and Messi purely because he's a central midfielder while Ronaldo and Messi are out and out forwards who constantly score goals, causing everybody to go mad for them. Some people don't appreciate players like Iniesta. Plus comparing Ronaldo and Iniesta is flawed because they play in different positions.

Your argument for Ronaldo in the Euro's can be applied to Messi in the World Cups though, I certainly didn't see anything from Messi that was infinitely better than Ronaldo's.

[ramsbottom]

Messi or Ronaldo??? Hmmmm, I'll have Zidane instead. Best of our generation by a mile...

[westbrom1404]

Messi - much the same as Guardiola as a manager. Great, one of the worlds best.

But to be THE worlds best, you need to do it on a different stage. Not necessarily PL, but somewhere else.

Clough Snr, Fergie, Shearer, Maradona, Mourinho - some of the games greatest ever players and managers. They've all, at one time or another, beaten the odds to win a title or a trophy. Messi hasn't had to do that yet.

I look at Messi and the stuff he does is just magical. But he doesn't look like he's being challenged. It's the same with Barca - it's almost a little tedious to watch at times, specially against teams lower down La Liga.

I'd love to see him in Italy against those stern defences. If he rips them apart and wins things, he'll get my vote.

This is why I rate Ronaldo just as highly as Messi.

[Duracell]

Messi - much the same as Guardiola as a manager. Great, one of the worlds best.

But to be THE worlds best, you need to do it on a different stage. Not necessarily PL, but somewhere else.

Clough Snr, Fergie, Shearer, Maradona, Mourinho - some of the games greatest ever players and managers. They've all, at one time or another, beaten the odds to win a title or a trophy. Messi hasn't had to do that yet.

I look at Messi and the stuff he does is just magical. But he doesn't look like he's being challenged. It's the same with Barca - it's almost a little tedious to watch at times, specially against teams lower down La Liga.

I'd love to see him in Italy against those stern defences. If he rips them apart and wins things, he'll get my vote.

Clough only did it in England, Fergie's only done it in Britain. Pele never proved himself outside the WC or Brazil.

I'm not sure what stage you have to prove yourself on as a player over than the Champions League, where Messi does rip apart the best defences in the world. Why if you've scored 5 goals in one game against Bayern Leverkusen would you need to drop down a level and score against Kaiserslautern to prove you're a good player?

I'd one day love to see Messi play somewhere else, but I don't think that changes his ability if he stays at Barca his whole career.

[Asanovic]

Clough only did it in England, Fergie's only done it in Britain. Pele never proved himself outside the WC or Brazil.

I'm not sure what stage you have to prove yourself on as a player over than the Champions League, where Messi does rip apart the best defences in the world. Why if you've scored 5 goals in one game against Bayern Leverkusen would you need to drop down a level and score against Kaiserslautern to prove you're a good player?

I'd one day love to see Messi play somewhere else, but I don't think that changes his ability if he stays at Barca his whole career.

True about Clough and Fergie, but they did amazing jobs with teams and dragged them forward. Messi has always been part of an amazing football team.

It doesn't change his ability, but the people around him make it easier for him to be exceptional. Some of the other all time greats (like Maradona basically winning '86 on his own), weren't afforded that luxury. It doesn't take anything from him, it just makes the achievements of people like Maradona much more astounding.

If we're talking purely skills Messi must be the best that's lived, but if we're talking acheivements, in context of resources around him I don't think it's quite as clear. That's why this argument will never be settled!

When all's said and done this 'greatest ever' argument is one entirely based on opinion. The only one that's a certainty, from both a skills and achievements perspective, is Asanovic.

[Duracell]

When all's said and done this 'greatest ever' argument is one entirely based on opinion. The only one that's a certainty, from both a skills and achievements perspective, is Asanovic.

Mate, you're not even the best footballer on the forum.

[Asanovic]

Mate, you're not even the best footballer on the forum.

Look mate, Igor can't even be arsed coming on here anymore. It has to be me.

Doesn't it?