Messi....... Is he one of the Greatest ever players? Or do Barca make it seem so?

[Guest]

Messi would disappear in the Prem, I think he needs a few more years in that Spanish league before he try's a competitive one.

Too true Boycie, Pep left cause he was bored of winning everthing, Jose and Ronaldo want to come back, even Becks had to go to america to further his career.

[Duracell]

Look mate, Igor can't even be arsed coming on here anymore. It has to be me.

Doesn't it?

At least you've stopped refering to yourself in the third person!

Didn't we have a Phil Gee's Big Toe on the forum at one point? If he's still a member then it's bad news for you I'm afraid.

[Bris Vegas]

Messi - much the same as Guardiola as a manager. Great, one of the worlds best.

But to be THE worlds best, you need to do it on a different stage. Not necessarily PL, but somewhere else.

Clough Snr, Fergie, Shearer, Maradona, Mourinho - some of the games greatest ever players and managers. They've all, at one time or another, beaten the odds to win a title or a trophy. Messi hasn't had to do that yet.

I look at Messi and the stuff he does is just magical. But he doesn't look like he's being challenged. It's the same with Barca - it's almost a little tedious to watch at times, specially against teams lower down La Liga.

I'd love to see him in Italy against those stern defences. If he rips them apart and wins things, he'll get my vote.

Messi has ripped apart the likes of Napoli, Milan, Man Utd, Arsenal, Bayern Munich, Leverkusen, Shakthar, Benfica, Brazil and Columbia in the past few years.. I feel like I'm repeating Duracell here but he doesn't need to play against Stoke or WBA to prove he can hack something different when he's cruised past the best of the best from each country..

You claim that Ronaldo has done it in different leagues but he was known to struggle against the top sides.. It took him about 7 attempts to score past Barcelona, he's contantly gone missing for Portugal in the big games and he's never finished top scorer in the CL.. He just had a great habbit of knocking 2 or 3 past Portsmouth, Aston Villa and Wigan..

Also, a team lower down in La Liga is better than a team lower down in the PL.. It's far more difficult to score a hattrick away at Mallorca than it is at Aston Villa.. Hell even Chicharito managed to do it for Utd and he was only on the pitch for about 30 minutes..

[Guest]

Didn't ronaldo also score a hat trick against Mallorca? If so what was your point again??

[Asanovic]

Messi has ripped apart the likes of Napoli, Milan, Man Utd, Arsenal, Bayern Munich, Leverkusen, Shakthar, Benfica, Brazil and Columbia in the past few years.. I feel like I'm repeating Duracell here but he doesn't need to play against Stoke or WBA to prove he can hack something different when he's cruised past the best of the best from each country..

You claim that Ronaldo has done it in different leagues but he was known to struggle against the top sides.. It took him about 7 attempts to score past Barcelona, he's contantly gone missing for Portugal in the big games and he's never finished top scorer in the CL.. He just had a great habbit of knocking 2 or 3 past Portsmouth, Aston Villa and Wigan..

Also, a team lower down in La Liga is better than a team lower down in the PL.. It's far more difficult to score a hattrick away at Mallorca than it is at Aston Villa.. Hell even Chicharito managed to do it for Utd and he was only on the pitch for about 30 minutes..

I never once mentioned he should play in the PL - I just said a new challenge, something else to work to.

Whenever I see Dortmund play, I always think Messi would be breathtaking there. He'd take them from a brilliant team to potentially another Barcelona for years to come. He'd totally elevate them. Again, in my opinion.

That'd make him the best ever for me.

All I'm saying is, his achivements in terms of tophies won't be viewed in as high a regard as some others because of the team he's in. Some people judge greatness on that - single handedly making a team fantastic.

That's all.

(I don't think I even mentioned Ronaldo in my previous posts.)

(Hernandez scored twice not three times against Villa.)

[eddie]

If Messi wants a new challenge, I've got a hedge that wants trimming.

[Duracell]

Didn't ronaldo also score a hat trick against Mallorca? If so what was your point again??

It's difficult, but not impossible. Bris is saying Messi is better than Ronaldo; he's never said he's a crap player incapable of scoring three goals against Mallorca.

[Duracell]

If Messi wants a new challenge, I've got a hedge that wants trimming.

Ew. Not on a family forum please.

[Guest]

It's difficult, but not impossible. Bris is saying Messi is better than Ronaldo; he's never said he's a crap player incapable of scoring three goals against Mallorca.

No he was saying that its easier to score a hat trick against Villa than Mallorca, and Ronaldo had a great habit against knocking them in against teams like Villa, but struggled against the better teams, and scoring against a lower team is easier in PL.

Yet compare the goals conceded by both Villa and Mallorca this season, and they are both as poor as each other, the last time anyone scored a hat rick against Villa was 2010....a minor point but one that Im claiming !

I actually think Messi is better than Ronaldo, but I though i heard that the latter has a better goals per game ratio played in spain, so the stats prove nothing.

[Bris Vegas]

I never once mentioned he should play in the PL - I just said a new challenge, something else to work to.

Whenever I see Dortmund play, I always think Messi would be breathtaking there. He'd take them from a brilliant team to potentially another Barcelona for years to come. He'd totally elevate them. Again, in my opinion.

That'd make him the best ever for me.

All I'm saying is, his achivements in terms of tophies won't be viewed in as high a regard as some others because of the team he's in. Some people judge greatness on that - single handedly making a team fantastic.

That's all.

(I don't think I even mentioned Ronaldo in my previous posts.)

(Hernandez scored twice not three times against Villa.)

If he really wanted a challenge he should move to a German midtable club like Stuttgart and take them to league and cup glory..

On a different note I think Mourinho is an amazing manager.. But his biggest achievement to date was winning the CL with Inter.. His route to CL glory with Porto was really easy, he fluked his way through Man Utd when Man Utd had a clearly good goal ruled out and Porto went through with a last minute equaliser, what followed was Lyon, Deportivo and then Monaco.. Other than that he won a league title at Chelsea built upon millions twice in 3 seasons, he continued winning with Inter although his CL win was impressive and he's won a league title with Real Madrid built upon the most expensively assembled squad in history but this season they're already out of it..

2 CL wins in 9 years is good but not monumental when you've been at 4 amazing clubs.. Pep won it twice in 4 years, Vincente del Bosque won it twice in 3 years, Ottmar Hitzfeld won it twice in 5 years with 2 different clubs.. Ancelloti twice in 5 years etc.. Mourinho is still one of my favourite managers but if people think Messi should move to another club to prove himself you could say the same about Mourinho and finding a different type of challenge.. Could Mourinho take over at Barnsley and get them promoted? Does he even need to do that to prove himself? I don't think so IMO.. I don't think Messi needs to go anywhere though I understand why people might want him to.

[Bris Vegas]

No he was saying that its easier to score a hat trick against Villa than Mallorca, and Ronaldo had a great habit against knocking them in against teams like Villa, but struggled against the better teams, and scoring against a lower team is easier in PL.

Yet compare the goals conceded by both Villa and Mallorca this season, and they are both as poor as each other, the last time anyone scored a hat rick against Villa was 2010....a minor point but one that Im claiming !

I actually think Messi is better than Ronaldo, but I though i heard that the latter has a better goals per game ratio played in spain, so the stats prove nothing.

In Spain Ronaldo has a better goals to game ratio but that's because he joined Real Madrid in his prime.. Since he joined during the past 4 years Messi has a better goals to game ratio.. Messi made his debut at 17, he obviously wasn't so affective until he reached 21 the same with Ronaldo whilst at Utd as an 18 year old..

It is easier to score a hattrick against Villa then it is against Mallorca.. Mallorca play in a more difficult league than the PL that's probably why they're down there.. They have to compete against the 2 best teams in the world, another 2 in the last 16 of the CL, last years Europa League finalists plus class teams like Bets, Sevilla, Getafe. Sociedad, Zaragoza etc..

But Ronaldo did have a habit of knocking them in against weaker sides.. Mallorca is a weaker Spanish side but they're still good.. His CL goalscoring record proves that he struggled in the past against better sides.. This season though he seems to have done better.. I'd actually back Real Madrid to win the CL this year, especially at 7/2.. Now they have more goals from different players they look like they can simply outscore anyone.. Including Barcelona on a good day..

[DCFCfranco]

bris only likes him because he plays for barca...

[Boycie]

If Messi wants a new challenge, I've got a hedge that wants trimming.

if he did do it, you'd have the commentators spunking over it, saying " that was worth the entrance fee alone"

[Boycie]

He can dribble, I'll give him that, but he wasn't as good as Our Will at 17.

[MuespachRam]

He is the greatest ever.

And, as will be revealed in our book, he is coming to Derby...!

[Alph]

He's more of a team player than Ronaldo. He's creative. He scores more goals.

I don't see what Ronaldo does better.

[Brammie Steve]

He is the greatest ever.

And, as will be revealed in our book, he is coming to Derby...!

But...do we need him??? 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ph34r' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':ph34r:' />

[Brammie Steve]

bris only likes him because he plays for barca...

Bris does???? He kept that quiet! 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

[Shake n Bake]

bris only likes him because he plays for barca...

'Likes' ? Understatement of the month!

[Asanovic]

If he really wanted a challenge he should move to a German midtable club like Stuttgart and take them to league and cup glory..

On a different note I think Mourinho is an amazing manager.. But his biggest achievement to date was winning the CL with Inter.. His route to CL glory with Porto was really easy, he fluked his way through Man Utd when Man Utd had a clearly good goal ruled out and Porto went through with a last minute equaliser, what followed was Lyon, Deportivo and then Monaco.. Other than that he won a league title at Chelsea built upon millions twice in 3 seasons, he continued winning with Inter although his CL win was impressive and he's won a league title with Real Madrid built upon the most expensively assembled squad in history but this season they're already out of it..

2 CL wins in 9 years is good but not monumental when you've been at 4 amazing clubs.. Pep won it twice in 4 years, Vincente del Bosque won it twice in 3 years, Ottmar Hitzfeld won it twice in 5 years with 2 different clubs.. Ancelloti twice in 5 years etc.. Mourinho is still one of my favourite managers but if people think Messi should move to another club to prove himself you could say the same about Mourinho and finding a different type of challenge.. Could Mourinho take over at Barnsley and get them promoted? Does he even need to do that to prove himself? I don't think so IMO.. I don't think Messi needs to go anywhere though I understand why people might want him to.

I understand most of this, but you can't fluke your way to winning the Champions League the whole way through. You watch enough football to know that.

Technically, as I've said, Messi is probably the best that's lived. I'm not saying he should join a midtable team and make them title winners for the sake of it, that's pointless. I'm saying I think it would be fantastic if he joined a team on the verge of long term glory and success (both domestically and in Europe - such as Dortmund), and made it happen. They'd suit him, he'd suit them.

I'd agree with you about Mourinho but we obviously have different views on what he did at Porto. Not sure he has much left to prove, but as I keep saying - this sort of stuff is all down to opinion.