Lionel Pickering

[StarterForTen]

20 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Not disingenuous in the slightest, just factual. 

He made numerous bad financial decisions which put the club in jeopardy and some that we were still paying for years later.

I'm grateful for the good times he gave but you can't just pretend that he didn't leave us in a mess.

In financial terms he was akin to Mel Morris eventually, the only difference being that we had a period of success on the pitch.

 

You are a million miles off on this one. Lionel was certainly not infallible but to put him alongside Mel Morris is nothing short of laughable. 

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, StarterForTen said:

You are a million miles off on this one. Lionel was certainly not infallible but to put him alongside Mel Morris is nothing short of laughable. 

Do you know the size of our debts when the club got taken off Pickering? Pretty much the same as when Morris put us in administration. 

Pickerings legacy is of course Pride Park and Moor Farm both built on borrowed money which in a round about kind of way has been paid for by Clowes.

As previously mentioned, the good times on the football pitch that Pickering gave us are the things I try to remember. 

To think the financial situation he put is in is not comparable to how Morris though, I'm afraid, is nothing short of laughable. 

[StarterForTen]

33 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Do you know the size of our debts when the club got taken off Pickering? Pretty much the same as when Morris put us in administration. 

Pickerings legacy is of course Pride Park and Moor Farm both built on borrowed money which in a round about kind of way has been paid for by Clowes.

As previously mentioned, the good times on the football pitch that Pickering gave us are the things I try to remember. 

To think the financial situation he put is in is not comparable to how Morris though, I'm afraid, is nothing short of laughable. 

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[G STAR RAM]

26 minutes ago, StarterForTen said:

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I'll take that as a 'no, I have no idea what sort of financial mess we were in' then.

[Chopper]

Lionel suffered the fate of many Chairmen, less than loved towards the end of their tenure, him, and Keith Loring as we slipped out of the Premier.

At the time we (though not all) were unkind, Baron Greenback (with Gregory playing Stilletto) was one image invoked on the DET forum. Hopefully it has changed to fondness though. Its not just us, the revisionism Notts fans have for their attitude to Dougherty is astounding.

Hindsight and History will be kinder to Lionel than Mel. Lionel put money into the club, gambled with a younger expensive team, failed, went again, got up, built a fantastic ground and infrastructure; and although his fortune could never compete with the 21st century owners, Derby under his stewardship moved into a position where we could maintain the potential to compete at that level.

[StarterForTen]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'll take that as a 'no, I have no idea what sort of financial mess we were in' then.

Just dug out my notebooks from the time - I worked for Raymonds Press Agency back then and provided background on this for national newspaper reporters, including David Conn.

When the Coop Bank pushed Pickering’s DCFC holding company into receivership in 2003 they were owed around £30m, about half of that can be attributed to the then balance on the stadium mortgage and more on other asset developments. The club’s day to day overdraft accounted for around £8m, which - to put it into perspective - is around £15m in today’s money.

Club directors were owed about £7.5m in unsecured loans, the vast majority of that figure being Pickering’s loans.

All told, about £37.5m in debt. Even allowing for inflation since then, that’s still around one third of the total debts under Morris.

 

[SamUltraRam]

My memories of the Lionel Pickering years were the astonishing amount of money he gave Arthur Cox to spend in 1991/92/93. Think us & Blackburn were spending more than most top league clubs

[G STAR RAM]

34 minutes ago, StarterForTen said:

Just dug out my notebooks from the time - I worked for Raymonds Press Agency back then and provided background on this for national newspaper reporters, including David Conn.

When the Coop Bank pushed Pickering’s DCFC holding company into receivership in 2003 they were owed around £30m, about half of that can be attributed to the then balance on the stadium mortgage and more on other asset developments. The club’s day to day overdraft accounted for around £8m, which - to put it into perspective - is around £15m in today’s money.

Club directors were owed about £7.5m in unsecured loans, the vast majority of that figure being Pickering’s loans.

All told, about £37.5m in debt. Even allowing for inflation since then, that’s still around one third of the total debts under Morris.

 

One third of the total debts, meaning you believe the club were £110m in debt when Morris put us into administration?

You're a million miles off with your estimate there.

Without looking at the administrators report again, our debts were something in the region of:-

£26m HMRC

£20m MSD loan

£8m football creditors

£8m other creditors 

From memory, about £62m. There were inter-company loans but obviously these were not external creditors that had to be paid.

So actually when taking inflation into account, very little difference between the debt that our owners had us in at the time.

There are of course differences in that LP was forced out whereas MM jumped ship, but both got themselves into their respective position through reckless spending and financial mismanagement. 

 

 

 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

Just now, SamUltraRam said:

My memories of the Lionel Pickering years were the astonishing amount of money he gave Arthur Cox to spend in 1991/92/93. Think us & Blackburn were spending more than most top league clubs

After a fair few of the same players.  The bigger dick scenario saw us break the record for a defender spending 300 k more on Short from Nott County than we got from Liverpool when we sold Mark Wright which was then a transfer record for a defender at the time.  Mind boggling for such an average player.  We somehow made a penny profit on him from Everton. 

Other one they won that comes to mind was a month long battle for Tim Sherwood where they swung it by making him an insane wage offer to change his mind.  They already had a very good player in Scott Sellars playing is position so a bit of strange signing and he couldn't get a game for a bit.

In the end it came down to a gnarled old s******** in the twilight of his career to stick his head in where it hurt to get them the deciding goal in the home leg of the playoffs after Forsyth hit the bar with his header.  Small margins  

[S8TY]

7 hours ago, SamUltraRam said:

My memories of the Lionel Pickering years were the astonishing amount of money he gave Arthur Cox to spend in 1991/92/93. Think us & Blackburn were spending more than most top league clubs

Exactly this at least he put a vast chunk of his personal  money in and for the time he was around it was exciting especially with some great signings some people maybe prefer he didn't get involved but for me as a fan was exciting times and think he meant well 

he didn't put us in admin 

[S8TY]

7 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

After a fair few of the same players.  The bigger dick scenario saw us break the record for a defender spending 300 k more on Short from Nott County than we got from Liverpool when we sold Mark Wright which was then a transfer record for a defender at the time.  Mind boggling for such an average player.  We somehow made a penny profit on him from Everton. 

Other one they won that comes to mind was a month long battle for Tim Sherwood where they swung it by making him an insane wage offer to change his mind.  They already had a very good player in Scott Sellars playing is position so a bit of strange signing and he couldn't get a game for a bit.

In the end it came down to a gnarled old s******** in the twilight of his career to stick his head in where it hurt to get them the deciding goal in the home leg of the playoffs after Forsyth hit the bar with his header.  Small margins  

yes Craig Short seemed a strange one even at the time at 2.5m it seemed a lot of money and was nowhere near Mark Wright's class and he was being touted as an England International, although he was good he never really hit the heights that was expected but I think I'm right in saying we spent 13m on some good signings Kitson,Pembridge,Gabbiadini, Johnson etc etc and was very exciting at the time 

[StarterForTen]

8 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

One third of the total debts, meaning you believe the club were £110m in debt when Morris put us into administration?

You're a million miles off with your estimate there.

Without looking at the administrators report again, our debts were something in the region of:-

£26m HMRC

£20m MSD loan

£8m football creditors

£8m other creditors 

From memory, about £62m. There were inter-company loans but obviously these were not external creditors that had to be paid.

So actually when taking inflation into account, very little difference between the debt that our owners had us in at the time.

There are of course differences in that LP was forced out whereas MM jumped ship, but both got themselves into their respective position through reckless spending and financial mismanagement. 

 

 

 

You’ve overlooked the £151million total loans owed by the club to Morris himself. 

[MadAmster]

9 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

One third of the total debts, meaning you believe the club were £110m in debt when Morris put us into administration?

You're a million miles off with your estimate there.

Without looking at the administrators report again, our debts were something in the region of:-

£26m HMRC

£20m MSD loan

£8m football creditors

£8m other creditors 

From memory, about £62m. There were inter-company loans but obviously these were not external creditors that had to be paid.

So actually when taking inflation into account, very little difference between the debt that our owners had us in at the time.

There are of course differences in that LP was forced out whereas MM jumped ship, but both got themselves into their respective position through reckless spending and financial mismanagement. 

 

 

 

Wasn't there something like another £140M we owed MM that he wrote off? At the time of going into administration that £140M was still a debt.

During MM's stewardship we he generated around £230M in income and spent around £450M. To say Pickering was "as bad" as MM is, IMO, well wide of the mark.

Edited May 30 by MadAmster

[G STAR RAM]

3 hours ago, StarterForTen said:

You’ve overlooked the £151million total loans owed by the club to Morris himself. 

I've not, there were no loans of that size.

Majority of the money put into the club was in the form of equity, not loans.

The administrators report showed circa £12m of inter-company loans from memory.

[G STAR RAM]

2 hours ago, MadAmster said:

Wasn't there something like another £140M we owed MM that he wrote off? At the time of going into administration that £140M was still a debt.

During MM's stewardship we he generated around £230M in income and spent around £450M. To say Pickering was "as bad" as MM is, IMO, well wide of the mark.

Answer to your first paragraph, no.

I would suggest looking back at the accounts during LPs stewardship and, factoring in inflation,see if you still come to the same conclusion.

Not sure where you figures in the last paragraph have come from so can't really comment. 

 

 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

5 hours ago, S8TY said:

yes Craig Short seemed a strange one even at the time at 2.5m it seemed a lot of money and was nowhere near Mark Wright's class and he was being touted as an England International, although he was good he never really hit the heights that was expected but I think I'm right in saying we spent 13m on some good signings Kitson,Pembridge,Gabbiadini, Johnson etc etc and was very exciting at the time 

We only lost money on Pembridge.  Johnson never really fitted in the formation and we signed Gabbiadini without watching him play.  Season before we had Ormondroyd and Davison who looked a very good pairing.  I believe based on interviews that Davison was promised a move as he got about 8 in 10, then we signed Gabbiadini instead.  A shame as I think it seriously sullied his opinion of the club and you can see that in interviews.  

[MadAmster]

4 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Answer to your first paragraph, no.

I would suggest looking back at the accounts during LPs stewardship and, factoring in inflation,see if you still come to the same conclusion.

Not sure where you figures in the last paragraph have come from so can't really comment. 

 

 

 

My first paragraph. Lots in the press  about how much the club owed Mel. That was reported to be around £140M which he wrote off once the Clowes deal had been completed. Kieran Maguire wrote an article, published on many sources indicating that Mel's ownership had cost him north of £200M in total.

My last paragraph. During MMs stewardship, income was running at £30M to £35M a year (roughly). Over his tenure that is around £230M in total. Maguire, and others, have reported MM losing north of £200M on the club. That's how I got to the £450M spend. He spent all the income and >£200M on top of that. It might be even more than my £450M estimate as we owed another £60M or so on top of that.

[G STAR RAM]

17 minutes ago, MadAmster said:

My first paragraph. Lots in the press  about how much the club owed Mel. That was reported to be around £140M which he wrote off once the Clowes deal had been completed. Kieran Maguire wrote an article, published on many sources indicating that Mel's ownership had cost him north of £200M in total.

My last paragraph. During MMs stewardship, income was running at £30M to £35M a year (roughly). Over his tenure that is around £230M in total. Maguire, and others, have reported MM losing north of £200M on the club. That's how I got to the £450M spend. He spent all the income and >£200M on top of that. It might be even more than my £450M estimate as we owed another £60M or so on top of that.

The press and Maguire should do more research then, as the figures were clearly presented in the Administrators Statement of Affairs and the club did not owe MM, and he did not write off, £140m.

That was money he put into the club, via his various investment vehicles, via equity purchases. That is not a debt to the club. The best analogy I can give is that if I my dad lends me £100 to but some Rolls Royce shares, then Rolls Royce does not owe my dad £100 and he cannot go to them for his money.

Get the general gist of your second point and you may be in the right region, although the £450m will include the original purchase price of the club which was in the region of £50m.

Also, in none of the accounts filed did our turnover top £30m, although income would have with transfer income taken into account.

Whilst on the point of transfers, it's worth mentioning that Pickering ended up selling of our crown jewels for peanuts to plug the gaps, which is akin to our academy being raided during administration. 

[DavesaRam]

On 29/05/2024 at 11:53, ramsbottom said:

As with every owner of a football club Lionel had his fans, and his detractors, but as the fans would far outweigh the detractors means he did a good job as a custodian of the club in the main.  My biggest criticism of him would he stuck by The Bald Eagle a season too long, but considering they were more like brothers than boss & employee it's not surprising.  He really should've let him go gracefully once Malcolm's goal at Old Trafford kept us up.  Yes it would've been a bad look, but we needed new ideas, and Jim had lost his touch in unearthing gems by then...

I remember the day we lost to Leicester 4-0 at home, me & my mates had gone back to The Yew Tree later on, and my mate smacked him in the face with the bog door as he was coming out.  Surprised he didn't sell up there and then.  You wouldn't have blamed him after such a crap day 🤣

I'd be happy if we named the East or south stand after him.  The Pickering End has a nice ring to it.

I think the delay in handover was that Jim was preparing Colin Todd to take over at the end of the season. Smith might have come to the end of his time as a manager, but Todd wasn't ready, but that didn't stop him going behind Jim's back to the board, and stabbing his mentor in the back. Apart from Todd's naivity, his underhand actions meant that the squad wouldn't play for him, which made the downhill spiral seem even more severe than it was. Sad days. And yet again, Rams fans were left thinking "Look what we could have had"!

[Crewton]

AFAICR when the Co-Op stepped in, we had no overdue tax debt and no other clubs were suing us, which is a very clear distinction between Lionel and Mel. And, ultimately, Mel put the club into Administration and ran off. Maybe Lionel would have had to if the Co-op hadn't pre-empted such an action, but he didn't, and was left in a far worse financial position than Mel.

I'm not really sure how anyone can make a case for Lionel being a worse owner than Mel.