Palestine

[ramit]

https://rumble.com/v3wkdcv--who-what-where-when-how-to-prosecute-genocide-whistleblower-craig-mokhiber.html?mref=331eul&mc=atat4

[Alph]

7 hours ago, ramit said:

https://rumble.com/v3wkdcv--who-what-where-when-how-to-prosecute-genocide-whistleblower-craig-mokhiber.html?mref=331eul&mc=atat4

Land of the free. Home of the brave. 

 

Blurgh 🤢🤮

[Alph]

Right at the start of this thread the Palestinians were accused of using actors. 

Has there ever been more incompetent and inconsistent propaganda by any country than the current form Israel are in. Some of it is just funny. Like actually distracts you from the insanity and makes you laugh. 

We've got actual actors, videos from 2016, images from Lebanese movies, videos posted and then deleted to reappear "unedited", glaring errors and inconsistency in reports and pictures. 

It's error after error after error. While at the same time senior Israeli officials say the most outrageous things about sending all Palestinians to Egypt and driving them out of Gaza. Like actually saying it out loud. 

Max Hastings was clear about what Netenyahu said when he met him

It's like the world has the biggest elephant in any room in history. How can anyone anywhere look themselves in the mirror and say supporting what Israel are doing in Gaza right now is self defence, self preservation or even about destroying Hamas. It just isn't. It really really isn't and Israel admit it day by day. But still we pretend. 

How much of our media can't even pretend to be impartial now because it will expose Israel. They have to pick small pieces of the events and ignore or reject a huge part of what's being said and what's going on. 

This is so criminal. 2023 that time Britain watched Gaza be slaughtered and couldn't even explain why it was necessary. Couldn't even protect the most vulnerable. Couldn't even keep the poor b******* safe in designated safezones. Can't even say "ceasefire". 

[Crewton]

A bit of good news at last. It looks like Israel and Hamas have agreed a 4 day humanitarian ceasefire, including the release of 50 women and children held hostage in Gaza and 150 Palestinian women and minors held in Israeli prisons, with Israel agreeing to extend the ceasefire by one day for every 10 further hostages released.

It's now up to those with influence to use this pause to convince the belligerents to agree to a longer ceasefire.

 

[Alph]

2 hours ago, Crewton said:

A bit of good news at last. It looks like Israel and Hamas have agreed a 4 day humanitarian ceasefire, including the release of 50 women and children held hostage in Gaza and 150 Palestinian women and minors held in Israeli prisons, with Israel agreeing to extend the ceasefire by one day for every 10 further hostages released.

It's now up to those with influence to use this pause to convince the belligerents to agree to a longer ceasefire.

 

Agreed. 

It will be a nervous four days though. With the IDF vulnerable in Gaza City and what's been going on in West Bank it's going to be easier to break a ceasefire than to hold it. You would never know which side would break it as they'd both blame each other. 

No such agreements with other groups either being reported so will that fighting continue?

I think something like 93% of Gaza doesn't have access to clean drinking water. Cholera and Typhoid are a bigger threat than bombs now!

Edited November 22, 2023 by Alpha

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Agreed. 

It will be a nervous four days though. With the IDF vulnerable in Gaza City and what's been going on in West Bank it's going to be easier to break a ceasefire than to hold it. You would never know which side would break it as they'd both blame each other. 

No such agreements with other groups either being reported so will that fighting continue?

I think something like 93% of Gaza doesn't have access to clean drinking water. Cholera and Typhoid are a bigger threat than bombs now!

Yes, I agree, this doesn't guarantee that other elements on either side won't commit provocative acts, but I get a sense that Biden is pushing the Israelis harder on the actions of illegal settlers in the West Bank. If so, I hope that causes the IDF to act a bit less like the private army of belligerent settlers and more like peace-keepers. Also, what are the Iranians telling their proxies? Hopefully, it's "only" Hamas and the IDF we have to worry about.

It's interesting that Netanyahu acted against the advice of some of his government 'war council' in agreeing to the truce. It seems the combined effect of the USA and the hostages families perhaps over-ruled the hawks?

[Alph]

30 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Yes, I agree, this doesn't guarantee that other elements on either side won't commit provocative acts, but I get a sense that Biden is pushing the Israelis harder on the actions of illegal settlers in the West Bank. If so, I hope that causes the IDF to act a bit less like the private army of belligerent settlers and more like peace-keepers. Also, what are the Iranians telling their proxies? Hopefully, it's "only" Hamas and the IDF we have to worry about.

It's interesting that Netanyahu acted against the advice of some of his government 'war council' in agreeing to the truce. It seems the combined effect of the USA and the hostages families perhaps over-ruled the hawks?

I'll give no credit to Biden until I take my last breath. Anything he does for Palestinians now is to protect himself and alleviate the pressure. To appear neutral. Their vetos and refusing to sign off on International laws I think speak for their intentions. I bet the war fund doesn't stop

Iran of course will want peace about as much as the Americans. Or if they do want peace it will be to promote BRICS and it will come with a propaganda campaign to show Russia etc as restoring peace and finding common ground where America and The EU failed. Either way they're in it for themselves as much as America. 

America and Britain are just saving face here. They jumped in with both feet and Hamas played it perfectly. They still are. 

As for Netenyahu... There's enough out there online to show what he thinks of Gaza and Palestinians. He's said the war will continue. Again, just saving face. 

Hamas, well it's just another perfect play. They killed 1,200 Israelis and kidnapped 200. Then managed to get the world talking about Palestinian suffering. There's more moral ambiguity around Hamas than ever. Which is not useful for peace. 

I know I go on a lot about terrible Israeli propaganda but Hamas has been peddling there's out too. But they're actually good at it. We don't want too much legitimacy given to them.

This temporary ceasefire is just a PR stunt to all parties imo. 

But if it saves lives then that's the main thing. On both sides. 

Realistically though, does anyone actually believe this will lead to something bigger? Too many factions. Too much money at stake. And I mean all sides. 

Putin has strapped on his big boy boots to "help" find peace. "BRICS can play key role in Middle East crisis"..... sure. 

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

Yes, I agree, this doesn't guarantee that other elements on either side won't commit provocative acts, but I get a sense that Biden is pushing the Israelis harder on the actions of illegal settlers in the West Bank. If so, I hope that causes the IDF to act a bit less like the private army of belligerent settlers and more like peace-keepers. Also, what are the Iranians telling their proxies? Hopefully, it's "only" Hamas and the IDF we have to worry about.

It's interesting that Netanyahu acted against the advice of some of his government 'war council' in agreeing to the truce. It seems the combined effect of the USA and the hostages families perhaps over-ruled the hawks?

I agree with allot of what you say here, but could you explain why you say Britain is just saving face here? I wasn't aware that Britain was involved in any way in this agreement being reached?

[Alph]

29 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I agree with allot of what you say here, but could you explain why you say Britain is just saving face here? I wasn't aware that Britain was involved in any way in this agreement being reached?

More that Britain was always open about pushing for "pauses" and not "ceasefire". So just in the way that this is what Britain supported. And I imagine Sunak and Co, if they haven't already, will be offering their full backing for this pause. But only the "pause". 

But I didn't mean my comment to be an attack or dig at Britain. I kind of throw British politicians with Americans on this since they just echo everything that comes out of Washington. 

[Crewton]

58 minutes ago, Alpha said:

More that Britain was always open about pushing for "pauses" and not "ceasefire". So just in the way that this is what Britain supported. And I imagine Sunak and Co, if they haven't already, will be offering their full backing for this pause. But only the "pause". 

But I didn't mean my comment to be an attack or dig at Britain. I kind of throw British politicians with Americans on this since they just echo everything that comes out of Washington. 

I haven't noticed any comment from the UK Government as yet, but I imagine they will be supporting both this pause and (after it comes into force tomorrow morning) its potential extension with the release of further hostages in due course, not that the UK's approval or future position will make much difference to the attitudes of any of the belligerents IMO.

[Alph]

It might make a difference if countries actually called for a permanent ceasefire. Didn't abstain from voting and talked with the same language they used when talking about Russia/Ukraine 

Vanessa Feltz did one hell of a job on one of her "guests" and that's a good example of my point. Palestinians and the Arab world are watching. They're not oblivious to politics. It matters what language is used and what countries vote for. 

She went on to cut her guest off when he a) disagreed with her belief that Palestinians don't care what Britain's stance is b) said that nobody in Israel uses genocidal language to which there's overwhelming evidence that they do. But that's besides the point. 

It all matters very much imo. It certainly matters to Russia, China, South Africa, Iran etc who are taking advantage of the PR opportunity. BRICS... The voice of peace, freedom and democracy while The West can't even say "ceasefire". That's their play 

[Crewton]

29 minutes ago, Alpha said:

BRICS... The voice of peace, freedom and democracy

I think that's stretching things a bit 😅

Undoubtedly, there are potential benefits to them in their approach, but it won't bring a permanent peace any closer IMO.

[Alph]

47 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I think that's stretching things a bit 😅

Undoubtedly, there are potential benefits to them in their approach, but it won't bring a permanent peace any closer IMO.

Yeah I needed a wink emoji there. 🤣

Saudi Arabia will join them soon too. India, China, Saudi Arabia... 

I want their summit to discuss Human Rights to be televised.

[Comrade 86]

I see the Qataris have poked their head over the parapet. They are obviously delighted to portray this as a 'win' against the 'infidel', but their grandstanding seems horribly distasteful given the ongoing plight of their neighbours. As has been the case all my life, my sympathies remain with ordinary Palestinian families trying to carve out a life under the most grim conditions imaginable and the families of those innocent Israelis slaughtered by Hamas.

For the Palestinians, the nightmare continues indefinitely, as they are trapped; on one side, Qatar and Qatari state-funded Hamas (Iran too), on the other, the Israeli Defence Force, funded and armed by Israel and the West. Sadly, the lines between terrorist, freedom fighter and legitimate government have now blurred to such an extent that to all intents and purposes, they no longer exist.

In spite of the ceasefire, which I obviously welcome, I see no meaningful end to hostilities in the region until the Middle East's resources have been sucked dry. Indeed, I expect tensions to heighten. As for the Palestinians, lord knows what becomes of them.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Comrade 86

[Alph]

I saw someone say "What have Hamas actually achieved. They're getting bombed and now want to release hostages and talk peace"

I think Hamas would declare this war a win if it ended today. They've achieved everything they set out to do and Israel have achieved nothing. 

Israel made commitments. How do they pull out now? 

Hamas will toy with them. They'll drip feed them hostages. I'd bet money on it. 

Their objective was to expose Israeli crimes and aggression, expose Western hypocrisy and damage Israeli relations with Saudi Arabia and UAE. 

Why would they stop? Because innocent Palestinians are dying? Those are Martyrs. It's about the greater cause. 

Hezbollah and Hamas have never been given such... not support but acceptance(?).... by the world to hurt Israel. They don't need people going to their online merch store for the 2023 edition of "I ❤️ Hamas". They just need the truth about Israel out in the world and some moral ambiguity. 

Neither side can stop yet. 

But while we have Qatar (where Hamas head office is) preaching for peace we also have David Cameron sucking off Netenyahu. 

So the poor poor innocent Palestinians will continue to lose everything. As always. @Comrade 86is spot on. The Palestinians suffering deserves sympathy. Real sympathy. Not empty words from people who encourage this s*** 

[Comrade 86]

47 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Neither side can stop yet.

In fairness, they might, but like you, I don't see it. The Israelis have claimed a deal more of the disputed regions as their own and that is definitely a part of the long-term strategic aim, so it wouldn't be viewed as a climb-down IMO and could almost be see as good PR. For me, Netanyahu's purpose is two-fold and it can sensibly be argued that part of their objective has been achieved, with the remaining target closer, if not in hand. It's a long old game this! That said, I think only the West can actually bring pressure to bear for an indefinite ceasefire, though is it in their interests to do so? I fear not and as has always been the case, that commercial considerations will trump any and all others. 

I don't remember who said it, or the exact quote, but it is words to the effect of, "evil prevails while good men look away" and that is exactly what we are seeing here and have always seen, especially in the last 80 years. What that period of history tells me in no uncertain terms, is that by far the most likely outcome is that things will continue just as they have and the oil will continue to flow.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Comrade 86
typos

[Leeds Ram]

18 hours ago, Alpha said:

I saw someone say "What have Hamas actually achieved. They're getting bombed and now want to release hostages and talk peace"

I think Hamas would declare this war a win if it ended today. They've achieved everything they set out to do and Israel have achieved nothing. 

Israel made commitments. How do they pull out now? 

Hamas will toy with them. They'll drip feed them hostages. I'd bet money on it. 

Their objective was to expose Israeli crimes and aggression, expose Western hypocrisy and damage Israeli relations with Saudi Arabia and UAE. 

Why would they stop? Because innocent Palestinians are dying? Those are Martyrs. It's about the greater cause. 

Hezbollah and Hamas have never been given such... not support but acceptance(?).... by the world to hurt Israel. They don't need people going to their online merch store for the 2023 edition of "I ❤️ Hamas". They just need the truth about Israel out in the world and some moral ambiguity. 

Neither side can stop yet. 

But while we have Qatar (where Hamas head office is) preaching for peace we also have David Cameron sucking off Netenyahu. 

So the poor poor innocent Palestinians will continue to lose everything. As always. @Comrade 86is spot on. The Palestinians suffering deserves sympathy. Real sympathy. Not empty words from people who encourage this s*** 

I don't think the attack had anything to do with exposing Israel's aggression to the wider world or exposing western hypocrisy. I think, like they were in the 1990's, they were terrified of losing legitimacy as Israel started to strike deals with countries in the region, especially Saudi Arabia. They saw their political space shrinking ever tighter and thought this was an attempt to appear relevant again and give them some oxygen. As you say, they don't give a fig for the lives of Palestinians either. 

[Alph]

12 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I don't think the attack had anything to do with exposing Israel's aggression to the wider world or exposing western hypocrisy. I think, like they were in the 1990's, they were terrified of losing legitimacy as Israel started to strike deals with countries in the region, especially Saudi Arabia. They saw their political space shrinking ever tighter and thought this was an attempt to appear relevant again and give them some oxygen. As you say, they don't give a fig for the lives of Palestinians either. 

Just a happy coincidence then. Lucky Hamas. 

I did say they don't care about Palestinian lives didn't I. Not like Israel. The liberal democratic state and great hope of the middle east

[Leeds Ram]

36 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Just a happy coincidence then. Lucky Hamas. 

I did say they don't care about Palestinian lives didn't I. Not like Israel. The liberal democratic state and great hope of the middle east

I just think you're giving what is a shameless violent ruthless cowardly terrorist group way too much credit tbh. Whether you like it or not, Israel is the most democratic state in the region by a pretty long chalk. 

[Highgate]

37 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

Whether you like it or not, Israel is the most democratic state in the region by a pretty long chalk. 

It is, if you are not a Palestinian. Especially one of those that was born there but never allowed to return to the country of their birth by the 'democratic' state of Israel. 

It's interesting to speculate what the situation in the Middle East would look like now if Iran had been allowed to keep it's nascent democracy in the 1950s, rather than having the US and UK destroy it, and replace it with a pliant, if brutal, dictator. I guess that's something we will never know. 

It seems to me that the Hamas attack was intended to prolong the war with Israel and prevent peace at all costs. A twisted and immoral strategy no doubt, but the overwhelming response from the IDF is probably exactly what they hoped for.