First choice summer signings

[TuffLuff]

This isn’t another thread to lambast Warne with, but I just wanted to add onto something I’ve thought about since posting in Curtain’s thread earlier. Who, out of those we signed in summer, would you believe were the top of Warne’s target list? Considering the profile Warne looks for and what has arrived.

Im starting to wonder whether the issues behind recruitment are maybe similar to what Nigel Clough experienced when he replaced Jewell.

Jewell spent two transfer windows bringing in a lot of players designed to challenge in the Championship and used up a lot of resources doing so. Jewell eventually leaves a defeated man and is replaced by Clough who has the job of rebuilding the club under a budget, which sounds pretty similar to now. I’m not really comparing Rosenior and Jewell here, I’m more comparing Clough and Warne and what the jobs they had to do. Warne and Clough were given decent players on paper, but if they aren’t your players and you’re on a budget then you may need to shift them before bringing in a player you want. Which proves difficult because not everyone wants to pay a fee for someone over 30.

So how much has that impacted summer recruitment this time? For example if we wanted a wide midfielder, but they see NML, Barkhuizen, Sibley, Wilson, Ward and others who can play those roles ahead of you then they have to consider if they will get the playing time you want? How long did it take Clough to shift out Jewel’s players and then his own stop gap signings like Nathan Tyson? 3/4 seasons? It wasn’t until he got Keogh and Bryson that he got players who he could build a young squad around. 

Looking back into now, we have a budget which is ‘competitive’ but presumably we aren’t blowing everyone else out of the water either. So consider Rodrigues, May and Smith who we were heavily linked with over summer. We might have the budget, but if Oxford or whoever can match it and offer more playing time then it becomes a serious conflict about who you sign for. Again add in that if you are a 24 year old and you see a 30-32 year old playing in your position then do you expect to play every week?

Although I’m getting there in a roundabout fashion, the point that I think I’m trying to make is that we aren’t in a position to be able to go out and get our top targets just yet and it takes a lot for a manager to be able to do it. At the minute we probably aren’t seen as the most attractive proportion either. Then when you don’t get your top targets, managers then have to make short term decisions which could impact you in the next window. That was the cycle Clough was in and it’s probably the cycle Warne is now in. Warne has a set of players he can do something with, it’s maybe just not yet ideally who he wants 

[TomTom92]

Fair points raised by yourself, but assuming we don’t go up but finish top 8 this season. Do you.. going off what you’ve currently seen with Warne trust him next summer?

[Tyler Durden]

I don't care what people bang on about our stadium, support, academy, players will almost always go for the biggest payday.

Likewise if we are fishing in the free transfer pool then this also limits the calibre of player we will have been able to attract. 

[Blondest Goat]

27 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

I don't care what people bang on about our stadium, support, academy, players will almost always go for the biggest payday.

Likewise if we are fishing in the free transfer pool then this also limits the calibre of player we will have been able to attract. 

So the teams above us recruited better cos they were able to pay transfer fees?  Dream on.

[TuffLuff]

42 minutes ago, TomTom92 said:

Fair points raised by yourself, but assuming we don’t go up but finish top 8 this season. Do you.. going off what you’ve currently seen with Warne trust him next summer?

Depends who you saw as the main targets over the summer tbh. Of the players we signed and have played regularly so far, Id want more Nyambe, Fornah and Wilson’s who are in the right age frame and would suit Warne’s style of play more and less of Washington and Waghorn who are short term fixes.

BUT, although I’m more positive than most, I do think we will be ok this season if John-Jules comes good. Pretty much all our strikers are ok for a bit but no one is convincing enough over a season.
 

Actually, I’d maybe say that about the majority of Roseniors players and why we are a bit in the situation we are, good players but a lack of consistency and hence why no one else was in for them last season

 

 

 

[May Contain Nuts]

When a forum poster could tell you their names weeks before any of them were official, I think you can pretty much guarantee that the first flush of signings - Ward, Nelson, Bradley, Elder & Vickers were first choice signings.

2 of them have so far been a waste of a wage, likely amongst our highest  (I'm not including Vickers as it's important to have a good backup keeper). Could one of those have been 'sacrificed' in favour of a more proven striker?

That we've committed to paying a fee for Washington on promotion would also attest to him being someone of high priority. He's not an automatic pick for our starting lineups but has contributed.

Nyambe probably too, although not sure if that's because the forced formation change required a more traditional RB to come in and it moved him up a notch.

Can't really tell with Fornah due to it initially being proposed as a loan deal,  Wilson seemed an opportunistic signing but as we were planning for a wing back system we'd need multiple options and I can't think of a better backup to Ward than him who'd have been on our list.

Obviously Waghorn wasn't 1st choice, he wasn't even on the radar. TJJ seems unlikely to have been someone we planned from the start of pre-season, although I'd say there's a chance Embleton was. Not sure I can explain my loflgic there it's just a feeling.

Either way I'm not really convinced on the comparison to Clough.

Clough inherited a squad of prima donnas on high wages and long contracts who'd been 'stained' by the abject nature of our relegation and needed clearing out, most weren't interested in playing for us in the Championship. Massive job 

Warne doesn't have a massive job. Administration allowed us a reset and a chance to build pretty much from scratch, the club's reputation may have still been in a ditch but it had nothing to do with the players we kept from the previous season.

If we're to claim that the players Warne inherited are getting in the way of him playing the way he wants and that we need to clear them out before he can start his job in earnest then quite frankly he shouldn't have been appointed at all.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[sage]

6 hours ago, TuffLuff said:

This isn’t another thread to lambast Warne with, but I just wanted to add onto something I’ve thought about since posting in Curtain’s thread earlier. Who, out of those we signed in summer, would you believe were the top of Warne’s target list? Considering the profile Warne looks for and what has arrived.

Im starting to wonder whether the issues behind recruitment are maybe similar to what Nigel Clough experienced when he replaced Jewell.

Jewell spent two transfer windows bringing in a lot of players designed to challenge in the Championship and used up a lot of resources doing so. Jewell eventually leaves a defeated man and is replaced by Clough who has the job of rebuilding the club under a budget, which sounds pretty similar to now. I’m not really comparing Rosenior and Jewell here, I’m more comparing Clough and Warne and what the jobs they had to do. Warne and Clough were given decent players on paper, but if they aren’t your players and you’re on a budget then you may need to shift them before bringing in a player you want. Which proves difficult because not everyone wants to pay a fee for someone over 30.

So how much has that impacted summer recruitment this time? For example if we wanted a wide midfielder, but they see NML, Barkhuizen, Sibley, Wilson, Ward and others who can play those roles ahead of you then they have to consider if they will get the playing time you want? How long did it take Clough to shift out Jewel’s players and then his own stop gap signings like Nathan Tyson? 3/4 seasons? It wasn’t until he got Keogh and Bryson that he got players who he could build a young squad around. 

Looking back into now, we have a budget which is ‘competitive’ but presumably we aren’t blowing everyone else out of the water either. So consider Rodrigues, May and Smith who we were heavily linked with over summer. We might have the budget, but if Oxford or whoever can match it and offer more playing time then it becomes a serious conflict about who you sign for. Again add in that if you are a 24 year old and you see a 30-32 year old playing in your position then do you expect to play every week?

Although I’m getting there in a roundabout fashion, the point that I think I’m trying to make is that we aren’t in a position to be able to go out and get our top targets just yet and it takes a lot for a manager to be able to do it. At the minute we probably aren’t seen as the most attractive proportion either. Then when you don’t get your top targets, managers then have to make short term decisions which could impact you in the next window. That was the cycle Clough was in and it’s probably the cycle Warne is now in. Warne has a set of players he can do something with, it’s maybe just not yet ideally who he wants 

If you can't compare Clough and Jewell, what's the point of this thread?

Warne was left with a far more competitive team with a squad that doesn't need to be cut for financial reasons.

No comparison.

 

[TuffLuff]

23 minutes ago, sage said:

If you can't compare Clough and Jewell, what's the point of this thread?

Warne was left with a far more competitive team with a squad that doesn't need to be cut for financial reasons.

No comparison.

 

If you can’t compare Clough and Jewell?

[sage]

8 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

If you can’t compare Clough and Jewell?

Rosenoir and Jewell...oops 

[Ghost of Clough]

6 hours ago, TuffLuff said:

This isn’t another thread to lambast Warne with, but I just wanted to add onto something I’ve thought about since posting in Curtain’s thread earlier. Who, out of those we signed in summer, would you believe were the top of Warne’s target list? Considering the profile Warne looks for and what has arrived.

Im starting to wonder whether the issues behind recruitment are maybe similar to what Nigel Clough experienced when he replaced Jewell.

Jewell spent two transfer windows bringing in a lot of players designed to challenge in the Championship and used up a lot of resources doing so. Jewell eventually leaves a defeated man and is replaced by Clough who has the job of rebuilding the club under a budget, which sounds pretty similar to now. I’m not really comparing Rosenior and Jewell here, I’m more comparing Clough and Warne and what the jobs they had to do. Warne and Clough were given decent players on paper, but if they aren’t your players and you’re on a budget then you may need to shift them before bringing in a player you want. Which proves difficult because not everyone wants to pay a fee for someone over 30.

So how much has that impacted summer recruitment this time? For example if we wanted a wide midfielder, but they see NML, Barkhuizen, Sibley, Wilson, Ward and others who can play those roles ahead of you then they have to consider if they will get the playing time you want? How long did it take Clough to shift out Jewel’s players and then his own stop gap signings like Nathan Tyson? 3/4 seasons? It wasn’t until he got Keogh and Bryson that he got players who he could build a young squad around. 

Looking back into now, we have a budget which is ‘competitive’ but presumably we aren’t blowing everyone else out of the water either. So consider Rodrigues, May and Smith who we were heavily linked with over summer. We might have the budget, but if Oxford or whoever can match it and offer more playing time then it becomes a serious conflict about who you sign for. Again add in that if you are a 24 year old and you see a 30-32 year old playing in your position then do you expect to play every week?

Although I’m getting there in a roundabout fashion, the point that I think I’m trying to make is that we aren’t in a position to be able to go out and get our top targets just yet and it takes a lot for a manager to be able to do it. At the minute we probably aren’t seen as the most attractive proportion either. Then when you don’t get your top targets, managers then have to make short term decisions which could impact you in the next window. That was the cycle Clough was in and it’s probably the cycle Warne is now in. Warne has a set of players he can do something with, it’s maybe just not yet ideally who he wants 

I think Vickers (GK), Bradley (CB), Nelson (RCB), Ward (RWB) and Elder (LWB) were his top priorities in each of their positions.

I think we missed out on several CM, AM and CF (for either 3412 or 3421) targets before settling on Fornah, Washington, Waghorn and John-Jules.

[TuffLuff]

6 minutes ago, sage said:

Rosenoir and Jewell...oops 

Ha, sorry. I mean you can compare and you are correct the squads (and league) is relevant, I was aware whilst writing down my thoughts that I was blathering a bit so I probably came across as flippant in places to avoid a ted talk!

But what I’d say is we look at players like Smith, Hourihane, Bird, Forsyth, NML, Barkhuizen, Collins and say we should be good enough. BUT how many of those players hit a good consistency over 46 games? The stand out player was McGoldrick and I think we probably need to say that McGoldrick ability covered up that groups lack of consistency. I think we see that this season with all of them tbh, aside Bird and Fozzy who I think have made a step up. All those players are great on their day, but as we saw last week they can look wanting in the space of a few days. I think Clough and Warne inherited players similar in that reapect, as in having a set of good players on their day but we didn’t see it over a season. Then you can only really offload them once their contracts expire and you end up having to make a short term decision (ie maybe the Washington and Waghorn signings) that could impact another signing in January for example.

I don’t want to sound like I’m letting Warne off the hook, but when we are discussing rebuilds I just want to point out how long it took Clough to get us competitive and think about how much chopping and changing happened to his squads before he nearly got a side that could play how he wanted to play.

[TuffLuff]

25 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I think Vickers (GK), Bradley (CB), Nelson (RCB), Ward (RWB) and Elder (LWB) were his top priorities in each of their positions.

I think we missed out on several CM, AM and CF (for either 3412 or 3421) targets before settling on Fornah, Washington, Waghorn and John-Jules.

I think it raises an interesting point that only Nelson so far has had considerable game time up to now in your first group. Ward and Elder especially need to be ready and available coming out of the international break.

[sage]

39 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

Ha, sorry. I mean you can compare and you are correct the squads (and league) is relevant, I was aware whilst writing down my thoughts that I was blathering a bit so I probably came across as flippant in places to avoid a ted talk!

But what I’d say is we look at players like Smith, Hourihane, Bird, Forsyth, NML, Barkhuizen, Collins and say we should be good enough. BUT how many of those players hit a good consistency over 46 games? The stand out player was McGoldrick and I think we probably need to say that McGoldrick ability covered up that groups lack of consistency. I think we see that this season with all of them tbh, aside Bird and Fozzy who I think have made a step up. All those players are great on their day, but as we saw last week they can look wanting in the space of a few days. I think Clough and Warne inherited players similar in that reapect, as in having a set of good players on their day but we didn’t see it over a season. Then you can only really offload them once their contracts expire and you end up having to make a short term decision (ie maybe the Washington and Waghorn signings) that could impact another signing in January for example.

I don’t want to sound like I’m letting Warne off the hook, but when we are discussing rebuilds I just want to point out how long it took Clough to get us competitive and think about how much chopping and changing happened to his squads before he nearly got a side that could play how he wanted to play.

I think our players are good enough. 

I wouldn't swap our squad for any other in the division..

Warne hasn't got to reduce the wage bill. 

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

22 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

I don't care what people bang on about our stadium, support, academy, players will almost always go for the biggest payday.

Likewise if we are fishing in the free transfer pool then this also limits the calibre of player we will have been able to attract. 

I would put any amount of money on our wage bill being higher than Oxford's wage bill.