Are we flat track bullies?

[MarsdenRam]

1 hour ago, Bris Vegas said:

Im genuinely curious as to why we have struggled under Warne against the better sides in the division. 

Because they were better sides.

[IlsonDerby]

‘They were the better sides’ is such a shiiit answer. 
 

we finished 7th meaning 5 of those teams out of the 11 weren’t ‘better sides’ so it’s important to focus on how next season we are going to improve on this to ensure we are more successful. 

[Andicis]

Bris this is so tiresome. Just give it a rest. You've had this discussion before.

[May Contain Nuts]

Thing is Bris is right, BUT ...

... it's a valid point posted so badly and so often and with so little intent to do anything other than troll which,  rather than helping anybody else's arguements which may also include this sort of info as part a discussion,  only leads to the viewpoint being dismissed going forward when it shouldn't be.

Warne's record against the top half IS bloody awful but there are ways and means of talking about it which don't lead to the entire point being ridiculed.

Edited May 7, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[LN747]

This has been obvious all season - ok v Bolton but struggled against the rest of top 8 or so 

just need some hard men and grit to go along with our skilful little lads and we’ll do better 

[Barney1991]

18 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

Top half teams points tallies vs teams in the top half

Plymouth 43

Ipswich 41

Sheff Wed 39

Barnsley 34

Bolton 33

Charlton 29

Lincoln 28

Posh 26

Wycombe 24

Derby 22 (TEN points under Rosenior)

Pompey 17

Shrewsbury 16

 

Top half teams points tallies vs teams in the bottom half

Plymouth 58

Ipswich 57

Sheff Wed 57

Derby 54

Pompey 53

Barnsley 52

Posh 51

Bolton 48

Wycombe 45

Charlton 43

Shrewsbury 43

Lincoln 42

I think we can see where our shortcomings have come this season? An inability to pick up points against the top half sides under Paul Warne has cost us.

Is that down to poor management? A lack of belief by the players?

It’s something we must rectify next season.

 

[QuitYourJibbaJivin]

18 minutes ago, LN747 said:

This has been obvious all season - ok v Bolton but struggled against the rest of top 8 or so 

just need some hard men and grit to go along with our skilful little lads and we’ll do better 

Exactly this, there’s no steel in this team and there hasn’t been for a good few seasons now. You only have to look at how bad our away record has been for the last 3-4 years. We’ve consistently wilted in games where other teams have stuck it on us.

[Loughborough Ram]

"Are we flat track bullies"? No.

We are better than most of the teams below us and not as good as most of the teams above us.

Our results reflect our position which is normal isn't it?

[May Contain Nuts]

The question really shouldn't be whether we're flat track bullies or not.

The question is whether we ever look capable of causing an upset or achieving a surprise victory by outplaying a superior opponent (preferably at full strength so there are no caveats).

Do we ever positively defy expectations? I can only think of Bolton at home in the league, and Liverpool & Barnsley in the cup as potential examples, but they did come with said caveats.

If you're not capable of such things, then unless you've outright got one of the top 3 squads in the division you're not going anywhere.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[littleover ram]

I think this is highlighting one of the main differences between League One and the Championship.

Championship feels like the teams are more generally at the same level whereas League One is a two tier league.

We’ve got a bunch of clubs who feel they’re unlucky Premier League level clubs in waiting (us, Bolton, Ipswich, Wednesday, Portsmouth etc) and the rest of the league average fewer than 10k fans per game. the championship is the promised land for them (Wycombe I’m looking at you)

You’ll of course get shock results like Forest Green beating Wednesday but it’ll even out over a whole season 

Edited May 8, 2023 by littleover ram

[Archied]

19 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

Top half teams points tallies vs teams in the top half

Plymouth 43

Ipswich 41

Sheff Wed 39

Barnsley 34

Bolton 33

Charlton 29

Lincoln 28

Posh 26

Wycombe 24

Derby 22 (TEN points under Rosenior)

Pompey 17

Shrewsbury 16

 

Top half teams points tallies vs teams in the bottom half

Plymouth 58

Ipswich 57

Sheff Wed 57

Derby 54

Pompey 53

Barnsley 52

Posh 51

Bolton 48

Wycombe 45

Charlton 43

Shrewsbury 43

Lincoln 42

I think we can see where our shortcomings have come this season? An inability to pick up points against the top half sides under Paul Warne has cost us.

Is that down to poor management? A lack of belief by the players?

It’s something we must rectify next season.

Really strange phrase , we could be flat track bully s if we avoided playing better side s and only turned up to bash up teams we consider ourselves better than , that’s not the case , we have a team and go out to try and beat what’s in front of us 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Caerphilly Ram]

3 hours ago, Kokosnuss said:

The question really shouldn't be whether we're flat track bullies or not.

The question is whether we ever look capable of causing an upset or achieving a surprise victory by outplaying a superior opponent (preferably at full strength so there are no caveats).

Do we ever positively defy expectations? I can only think of Bolton at home in the league, and Liverpool & Barnsley in the cup as potential examples, but they did come with said caveats.

If you're not capable of such things, then unless you've outright got one of the top 3 squads in the division you're not going anywhere.

My counter to that is, have we ever been comprehensively outplayed and beaten by any of the sides Bris seems keen to point out our inferiority to? I get what he’s trying to say, I just think there’s more to it than the binary view of “beat bad teams = good, lost to good teams = bad”

Ipswich played us off the pitch at Pride Park and Barnsley gave us a pasting in one game, from memory that’s all I can think of. The two games with Plymouth were competitive, same with the Sheff Weds games. We looked very good in spells against Portsmouth, Bolton, Wycombe, Peterborough and others from the top half. The Peterborough game in particular was the perfect illustration of a game of two halves and showcased Warne’s stubbornness/inability to adapt to a tee. Had we taken the chances in the first half as with a number of other games we would have been out of sight and therefore I don’t think Bris’ repeat pursuit of this odd title/label for the team would matter.
We have been competitive in games against other top half sides, a combination of squad depth, fatigue, form, confidence and tactical persistence played a part in those games, along with other factors both genuine and conspiratorial/fantastical.
I don’t think it can be reduced to a catchy phrase, it’s more complex than that and the whole season has to be considered as to our overall performance, not enough good results against top AND bottom sides were our undoing. For me, failing to pick up maximum points at Bristol Rovers or at home to Fleetwood or Lincoln was just as damaging to our points tally and season as the games against Bolton, Sheff Weds and Barnsley. We simply weren’t consistent/strong enough throughout the whole season.

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

My counter to that is, have we ever been comprehensively outplayed and beaten by any of the sides Bris seems keen to point out our inferiority to? I get what he’s trying to say, I just think there’s more to it than the binary view of “beat bad teams = good, lost to good teams = bad”

Ipswich played us off the pitch at Pride Park and Barnsley gave us a pasting in one game, from memory that’s all I can think of. The two games with Plymouth were competitive, same with the Sheff Weds games. We looked very good in spells against Portsmouth, Bolton, Wycombe, Peterborough and others from the top half. The Peterborough game in particular was the perfect illustration of a game of two halves and showcased Warne’s stubbornness/inability to adapt to a tee. Had we taken the chances in the first half as with a number of other games we would have been out of sight and therefore I don’t think Bris’ repeat pursuit of this odd title/label for the team would matter.
We have been competitive in games against other top half sides, a combination of squad depth, fatigue, form, confidence and tactical persistence played a part in those games, along with other factors both genuine and conspiratorial/fantastical.
I don’t think it can be reduced to a catchy phrase, it’s more complex than that and the whole season has to be considered as to our overall performance, not enough good results against top AND bottom sides were our undoing. For me, failing to pick up maximum points at Bristol Rovers or at home to Fleetwood or Lincoln was just as damaging to our points tally and season as the games against Bolton, Sheff Weds and Barnsley. We simply weren’t consistent/strong enough throughout the whole season.

Agree with all of that.

As I said in an earlier post, there is value in what Bris is saying but far less so in the manner it's been presented.