Ram-Alf Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 16 hours ago, Archied said: When was the last time a political leader came along in the west who actually inspired you rather than made you think wtf ? If you look real closely you'll see the last one disappearing in the mist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramarena Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 On 11/07/2024 at 07:24, Archied said: I watch the news on this from lots of sources and read this forum with interest , im no expert on all of the history leading up to this or the forces at play now in who s interests , I see lots of tub thumping and let’s give it them words thrown out all over the place from a safe distance , the one question I ask myself and would urge others to do with total honesty is ,,,, would I want to see my son conscripted and sent off to die alone thousands of mile from home ? Would I duck , in fact I would not stand for it , we would stand and die together if anyone tried to force my kids to be taken off to die for faceless money and power hungry loons ,,,, yes you may laugh and think this daft but this situation could turn to just that in the blink of an eye I can absolutely understand this, it’s a perfectly natural response. I also absolutely understand the people who are prepared to join the battle to try and stop a genocidal regime from invading their country. Its almost as if the world is different shades of grey, instead of a black and white internet “debate”. Highgate and jono 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ramarena said: I can absolutely understand this, it’s a perfectly natural response. I also absolutely understand the people who are prepared to join the battle to try and stop a genocidal regime from invading their country. Its almost as if the world is different shades of grey, instead of a black and white internet “debate”. I could go with you if we had any consistency on what we get involved in abroad and supposedly why ,, if we were invaded that’s a different matter , defence is one thing and what we do is very often quite another , personally I would nuke up to the hills for defence and keep the hell out of other peoples poo , whatever way you slice it funding and extending un winnable wars with no effort to find peace or let others find peace in theyre regions is piling up the death and misery🤷🏻♂️ Edited July 13 by Archied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 5 hours ago, Ram-Alf said: If you look real closely you'll see the last one disappearing in the mist It’s not mist , it’s pipe smoke ,,,, Harold Wilson ? Ram-Alf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 37 minutes ago, Archied said: I could go with you if we had any consistency on what we get involved in abroad and supposedly why ,, if we were invaded that’s a different matter , defence is one thing and what we do is very often quite another , personally I would nuke up to the hills for defence and keep the hell out of other peoples poo , whatever way you slice it funding and extending un winnable wars with no effort to find peace or let others find peace in theyre regions is piling up the death and misery🤷🏻♂️ Who's suggested the UK is planning to send serving soldiers to fight overseas, let alone conscript others to do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramarena Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 40 minutes ago, Archied said: I could go with you if we had any consistency on what we get involved in abroad and supposedly why ,, if we were invaded that’s a different matter , defence is one thing and what we do is very often quite another , personally I would nuke up to the hills for defence and keep the hell out of other peoples poo , whatever way you slice it funding and extending un winnable wars with no effort to find peace or let others find peace in theyre regions is piling up the death and misery🤷🏻♂️ The desire for peace is a great thing, Unfortunately, peace can only be made with people who wish to keep to it. The Ukrainians found this out the hard way. Crewton and Ram-Alf 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramarena Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 Interesting to see Poland increase their defence spending to 5% of gdp. For reference, that will now be higher than US spends as a percentage of gdp, which is insane to think about. Poland really does not trust Russia at all and is preparing themselves for the threat Russia poses. Its such a shame that these huge sums of money have to be spent on defence, instead of something more productive for the country. That said, I don’t blame them, given what’s happening on their doorstep. Ram-Alf, GboroRam, jono and 3 others 3 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Crewton said: Who's suggested the UK is planning to send serving soldiers to fight overseas, let alone conscript others to do it? That s ok I feel safe that nobody is planning it , we’ve got it all under control in Ukraine , not a chance that commitment to fund 3 billion a year to arming Ukraine in a war against Russia could escalate , we are up to our ears in a war against Russia , a spit from it going tits up, good few hospitals , doctors , nurses , teachers , homes for the homeless and building for our youngsters there 🤷🏻♂️ Edited July 13 by Archied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 2 minutes ago, Archied said: That s ok I feel safe that nobody is planning it , we’ve got it all under control in Ukraine , not a chance that commitment to fund 3 billion a year to arming Ukraine in a war against Russia could escalate , we are up to our ears in a war against Russia , a spit from it going tits up We're providing funds training and weapons to Ukraine to help them defend themselves and reclaim their territory if they wish to. That's not being "up to our necks in it" but I agree that escalation is possible, as it is in any conflict. So what do you want to happen exactly? What's your alternative solution that doesn't involve complete Ukrainian capitulation and their subjugation to the proxy rule by Russia (apologies if you have covered this before - repost your thoughts or post a link if you like)? Ramarena and Tamworthram 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 46 minutes ago, Ramarena said: Interesting to see Poland increase their defence spending to 5% of gdp. For reference, that will now be higher than US spends as a percentage of gdp, which is insane to think about. Poland really does not trust Russia at all and is preparing themselves for the threat Russia poses. Its such a shame that these huge sums of money have to be spent on defence, instead of something more productive for the country. That said, I don’t blame them, given what’s happening on their doorstep. The mess in Ukraine has been festering for a very long time let alone from 2014 when this latest mess actually kicked off , the narrative that Russia is on the road to an expansionist March through Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe including nato countries is fear porn to keep us all tub thumping stop us calling for peace talks / cease fire ( gazza anyone ? ) , keep us all scared and feeling we need the political and commerce classes to do whatever they chose to keep us safe is a tactic that’s been well used for a long time but particularly ramped up over the last few years with climate crisis , pandemic that the average age of people dying was above the average life expectancy , wars , threat to our security from anybody that isn’t part of or happy to go along with western military and economic supremacy status quo abound ramit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 14 minutes ago, Crewton said: We're providing funds training and weapons to Ukraine to help them defend themselves and reclaim their territory if they wish to. That's not being "up to our necks in it" but I agree that escalation is possible, as it is in any conflict. So what do you want to happen exactly? What's your alternative solution that doesn't involve complete Ukrainian capitulation and their subjugation to the proxy rule by Russia (apologies if you have covered this before - repost your thoughts or post a link if you like)? If I am fighting with someone and you are handing them baseball bats then you are in it , at war with me 🤷🏻♂️ ramit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 On 12/07/2024 at 17:01, Archied said: When was the last time a political leader came along in the west who actually inspired you rather than made you think wtf ? I know this will sound a bit odd but we seem to have settled for 3 types of politics 1) Those parties that huddle round opinion poles and social media, slanting their policies a little bit one way or the other, or latching on to some highly publicised pressure point to get votes. 2) Those on the angry left that want a complete revolution and claim none existent moral high ground tied to an endless self invented money tree. And let’s be honest If someone’s got a Bob or two it’s because they have cheated and lied or built it on the back of some victim or another 3)Tub thumping right wingers who think we are still in 1957 with industrial power and wealth and lots of hard working folk who know their place in the social order and need to put up with a bit of discomfort. Oh, and Jonny Foreigners jolly well need to behave and show due deference. Inspiration ? I see so little Archied 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 30 minutes ago, Archied said: If I am fighting with someone and you are handing them baseball bats then you are in it , at war with me 🤷🏻♂️ That's a quite ridiculous analogy. To be honest though, if you'd started a fight with someone much weaker than you, anyone worth their salt would step in and stop you if they had the means. Plenty of countries are supporting the Russian war effort - do you believe that Ukraine should fight on alone, or be forced to submit to the will of Putin? Ramarena, GboroRam and jono 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 38 minutes ago, Crewton said: We're providing funds training and weapons to Ukraine to help them defend themselves and reclaim their territory if they wish to. That's not being "up to our necks in it" but I agree that escalation is possible, as it is in any conflict. So what do you want to happen exactly? What's your alternative solution that doesn't involve complete Ukrainian capitulation and their subjugation to the proxy rule by Russia (apologies if you have covered this before - repost your thoughts or post a link if you like)? Ok let me tell you what I do know ,,,,, Ukraine cannot win this war , never could despite the bull poo that’s been put out from the start , the only way they defeat Russia is if we the west escalate beyond massive funding and get up to our ears in muck and bullets , the longer it goes on the more people die , the weaker the negotiating position for Ukraine is , massive sanctions on Russia from the start ( not pretend ones ) and every avenue used to force cease fire and peace talks used and dare I say it an honest look at whether we the west exasperated things , not a rush to fill the theatre with billions and billions worth of killing machines , rockets ,weapons and dead bodies , but hey let’s pretend we’ve got it right , let’s beat our chests with no surrender calls for as long as we can , fact is we either go to war with Russia or keep the deaths rolling for as long as we can with money 🤷🏻♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 2 minutes ago, Crewton said: That's a quite ridiculous analogy. To be honest though, if you'd started a fight with someone much weaker than you, anyone worth their salt would step in and stop you if they had the means. Plenty of countries are supporting the Russian war effort - do you believe that Ukraine should fight on alone, or be forced to submit to the will of Putin? If that someone is someone who does that whenever and wherever he sees it then you’ve got a bit of a shout , that’s not who we are ( take a look around past and present 🤷🏻♂️) wonder if you would feel the same had Russia poured in 3 billion in weapons and arms into the Ireland conflict Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramarena Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 7 minutes ago, Archied said: Ok let me tell you what I do know ,,,,, Ukraine cannot win this war , never could despite the bull poo that’s been put out from the start , the only way they defeat Russia is if we the west escalate beyond massive funding and get up to our ears in muck and bullets , the longer it goes on the more people die , the weaker the negotiating position for Ukraine is , massive sanctions on Russia from the start ( not pretend ones ) and every avenue used to force cease fire and peace talks used and dare I say it an honest look at whether we the west exasperated things , not a rush to fill the theatre with billions and billions worth of killing machines , rockets ,weapons and dead bodies , but hey let’s pretend we’ve got it right , let’s beat our chests with no surrender calls for as long as we can , fact is we either go to war with Russia or keep the deaths rolling for as long as we can with money 🤷🏻♂️ And when they reject the terms of peace that you try to force upon them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 4 minutes ago, Archied said: Ok let me tell you what I do know ,,,,, Ukraine cannot win this war , never could despite the bull poo that’s been put out from the start , the only way they defeat Russia is if we the west escalate beyond massive funding and get up to our ears in muck and bullets , the longer it goes on the more people die , the weaker the negotiating position for Ukraine is , massive sanctions on Russia from the start ( not pretend ones ) and every avenue used to force cease fire and peace talks used and dare I say it an honest look at whether we the west exasperated things , not a rush to fill the theatre with billions and billions worth of killing machines , rockets ,weapons and dead bodies , but hey let’s pretend we’ve got it right , let’s beat our chests with no surrender calls for as long as we can , fact is we either go to war with Russia or keep the deaths rolling for as long as we can with money 🤷🏻♂️ The fact is, even if the West remove all support, the Ukrainians will fight on at least until they no longer can, and all the civilian deaths caused by russian bombing that happen because they have no air defences, and all the suffering of Ukrainians under Russian "influence" thereafter, will be on us. Ramarena and jono 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 4 minutes ago, Archied said: If that someone is someone who does that whenever and wherever he sees it then you’ve got a bit of a shout , that’s not who we are ( take a look around past and present 🤷🏻♂️) wonder if you would feel the same had Russia poured in 3 billion in weapons and arms into the Ireland conflict Where do you think all the Kalashnikovs and Semtex came from? All supplied by proxies with Kremlin approval. It's not a game of whataboutery either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 Just now, Ramarena said: And when they reject the terms of peace that you try to force upon them? Force upon them ? They are neighbouring countries who have been at it for a very long time , they will have to find a way to stop killing each other , do not kid yourself we are only in it for humanitarian reasons and nothing to do with our military and economic interests ramit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Crewton said: Where do you think all the Kalashnikovs and Semtex came from? All supplied by proxies with Kremlin approval. It's not a game of whataboutery either Mostly America , it’s not a game of honesty either by the looks of things , anyway I’m just posting how I see things , you see it differently and that’s up to you , im just weary of the same old poo running on loop , kind of happens when you reach my age and have been bothered enough over the years to take an interest in how things start and pan out 🤷🏻♂️ Edited July 13 by Archied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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