The Ukraine War

[jono]

29 minutes ago, ramit said:

There is a political correctness in practice, if one refuses to support Ukraine, the most corrupt nation in Europe, fighting the horrible Russians in the name of freedom and yeah democracy, like they know anything about those concepts.  Here in my locale, we had mayor's offices flying the Ukrainian flag instead of our own.  I made a joke about that Scottish guy raising the flags of England football opponents on his flagpole that he was lucky they weren't playing Russia.  More than being called names, he might risk a brick through the window in the name of freedom.  

I see you are well versed in the Putin monster mantra, falling off buildings, imprisoned like that fascist agent Navalny, I mean freedom fighter, or incompetently poisoned by a nerve agent instead of a lethal poison.  But Aww didums, don't worry, that big meanie won't get you in your safe democratic land of freedom and righteousness.

I am fine with being disagreed with, as long as folks come at me one at a time, however mutual agreements of holding back insults would be beneficial to staying on topic, but of course once thrown risks the same being tossed back, potentially ruining any further useful discourse.

Of course, rather than having your freedom of speech curtailed or the rest of us being conned by propaganda, it could be that you are wrong and the majority disagree with you for good reason. 

Consider .. who notionally is giving succour to Putin ? Iran, North Korea, China and some Eastern European states who if they didn’t would be on Putins list. Cracking bunch aren’t they ? Those who shut down un friendly social media, or have a starving populace or dictate what women wear in the street, hang gay people from cranes, or have firing squads for dissenters. These aren’t stories made up by a cadre of media moguls they are recorded facts 
 

Your attitude and description to the poisoning ? Really ? .. So that wasn’t that bad was it ? 
 

[ramit]

7 hours ago, jono said:

Of course, rather than having your freedom of speech curtailed or the rest of us being conned by propaganda, it could be that you are wrong and the majority disagree with you for good reason. 

Consider .. who notionally is giving succour to Putin ? Iran, North Korea, China and some Eastern European states who if they didn’t would be on Putins list. Cracking bunch aren’t they ? Those who shut down un friendly social media, or have a starving populace or dictate what women wear in the street, hang gay people from cranes, or have firing squads for dissenters. These aren’t stories made up by a cadre of media moguls they are recorded facts 
 

Your attitude and description to the poisoning ? Really ? .. So that wasn’t that bad was it ? 
 

There is a global power struggle going on, countries uniting forces to oppose and defeat American hegemony. The old adage, the enemy of my enemy is my friend is obviously in practice.   BRICS is another example of new unions being created and whether we in the west like it or not, it is gaining momentum.  World politics is a dirty business, no matter from what side we view it, there are no good guys.

The poisonings were not effective was my point.  Do you honestly believe that Russia is incapable of swiftly disposing of it's opponents?  Do you think it is in their interest to have their victims survive such attacks, not just once but repeatedly?  Are they that incompetent or are things sometimes not as western media and governments portray them?  Propaganda is a tool used by all sides in a political conflict, the western media is chock full of it for those who have eyes to see and understandably too, for the big news corporations are all owned and paid for by big money, who are the real power mongers today in the not so free west.

I don't take sides in this conflict, I oppose big power blocks and empires, for I understand that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  I hope for a world of nations and cultures working together for the common good of all, a preposterous idea, I know, but that is my stand.

[Archied]

2 hours ago, jono said:

Of course, rather than having your freedom of speech curtailed or the rest of us being conned by propaganda, it could be that you are wrong and the majority disagree with you for good reason. 

Consider .. who notionally is giving succour to Putin ? Iran, North Korea, China and some Eastern European states who if they didn’t would be on Putins list. Cracking bunch aren’t they ? Those who shut down un friendly social media, or have a starving populace or dictate what women wear in the street, hang gay people from cranes, or have firing squads for dissenters. These aren’t stories made up by a cadre of media moguls they are recorded facts 
 

Your attitude and description to the poisoning ? Really ? .. So that wasn’t that bad was it ? 
 

Gets a bit sticky when you apply the things you talk of to Palestine ect , 

 

[jono]

1 hour ago, ramit said:

There is a global power struggle going on, countries uniting forces to oppose and defeat American hegemony. The old adage, the enemy of my enemy is my friend is obviously in practice.   BRICS is another example of new unions being created and whether we in the west like it or not, it is gaining momentum.  World politics is a dirty business, no matter from what side we view it, there are no good guys.

The poisonings were not effective was my point.  Do you honestly believe that Russia is incapable of swiftly disposing of it's opponents?  Do you think it is in their interest to have their victims survive such attacks, not just once but repeatedly?  Are they that incompetent or are things sometimes not as western media and governments portray them?  Propaganda is a tool used by all sides in a political conflict, the western media is chock full of it for those who have eyes to see and understandably too, for the big news corporations are all owned and paid for by big money, who are the real power mongers today in the not so free west.

I don't take sides in this conflict, I oppose big power blocks and empires, for I understand that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  I hope for a world of nations and cultures working together for the common good of all, a preposterous idea, I know, but that is my stand.

I too hope in a similar vein to your last paragraph, but before we reach Utopia I want to exist now, under our flawed system rather than one advanced by those countries that are giving support the current Russian govt. Putin doesn’t want what you want. His language since Crimea is straight out of History .. Lebensraum for greater Russia.
China are in your hegemonic battle yes but that’s known by all.

If Putin said “I made a mistake” and withdrew his forces from a land he invaded .. a land that hadn’t attacked Russia .. then that might be a first step to reason.  ! He won’t, so meanwhile the Ukrainians fight for their lives. Those other nations uniting ? To do what .. form another hegemony ? Looks like it to me .. and let’s be honest .. there aren’t many of them except in the inclusion of the vast populace nation that is China, governed by a 1 party state. 

[jono]

13 minutes ago, Archied said:

Gets a bit sticky when you apply the things you talk of to Palestine ect , 

 

Not sure. Defo the IDF has done some very nasty stuff and I think Netinyahu (sorry spelling 🤣) is bellicose and less than pleasant, but if as a populace you vote for Hamas who act in the way they have then there will be a reaction. I also wonder what the rest of the Middle East does for Palestine ? Are Egypt’s borders open ? Do they let Palestinians move freely from Gaza ? 

Israel is totally surrounded by countries who would rather it didn’t exist. Their reaction to Hamas is what you might expect.

Don't get me wrong, there should be a 2 state solution, Israel should not be settling areas that don’t belong to them but if you instigate something by slaughtering and raping young people at a music festival then the response is going to be painful. It is tragic but a them and us perspective when religion is involved isn’t helpful. Sadly it’s now so much worse for all concerned. 

[ramit]

That's the thing though, we will never reach our desired future if we continue to support the power structures of today, ensuring their continued dominance.  It is no good to say that we the people don't have the power to shape our future, because we do, but that means rejecting power players and uniting as world citizens.

Now to the current situation.

Putin this and Putin that is a ridiculous approach for discussion, he is not on some lone crusade, this is the Russian establishment we are dealing with and cannot be simplistically personified, it would go on without him and likely at greater fervor.

The Russian political view is that they will not tolerate a hostile state in Ukraine, they made that quite clear often enough, no NATO membership, no further encroachment.  Ukraine is a pawn in the hands of USA to weaken Russia and they don't give two hoots for the well being of Ukrainian citizens.  Ukraine has definitely shown aggression toward Russia and they are reaping the whirlwind.  Peace will not come unless both sides find a compromise, that is the reality, to say Russia must back down completely is a call for continued war.

I am for peace, but practical realism as well.

[Crewton]

6 hours ago, ramit said:

There is a political correctness in practice, if one refuses to support Ukraine, the most corrupt nation in Europe

Not according to these guys it isn't - it's several places better than Russia.

https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022

[ramit]

8 hours ago, Crewton said:

Not according to these guys it isn't - it's several places better than Russia.

https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022

Cronyism and to some degree nepotism is rampant in Iceland and always has been, yet Transparency International announced for years that corruption in Iceland was negligible.  Only recently has Iceland slipped down their scales a tad, yet in no way reflecting the reality.

I wouldn't trust those people to spot an oncoming eighteen wheeler blasting his horn on a single lane highway in Holland.

[Crewton]

14 minutes ago, ramit said:

Cronyism and to some degree nepotism is rampant in Iceland and always has been, yet Transparency International announced for years that corruption in Iceland was negligible.  Only recently has Iceland slipped down their scales a tad, yet in no way reflecting the reality.

I wouldn't trust those people to spot an oncoming eighteen wheeler blasting his horn on a single lane highway in Holland.

Why does that answer not surprise me. 😂 

 

[jono]

5 hours ago, ramit said:

That's the thing though, we will never reach our desired future if we continue to support the power structures of today, ensuring their continued dominance.  It is no good to say that we the people don't have the power to shape our future, because we do, but that means rejecting power players and uniting as world citizens.

Now to the current situation.

Putin this and Putin that is a ridiculous approach for discussion, he is not on some lone crusade, this is the Russian establishment we are dealing with and cannot be simplistically personified, it would go on without him and likely at greater fervor.

The Russian political view is that they will not tolerate a hostile state in Ukraine, they made that quite clear often enough, no NATO membership, no further encroachment.  Ukraine is a pawn in the hands of USA to weaken Russia and they don't give two hoots for the well being of Ukrainian citizens.  Ukraine has definitely shown aggression toward Russia and they are reaping the whirlwind.  Peace will not come unless both sides find a compromise, that is the reality, to say Russia must back down completely is a call for continued war.

I am for peace, but practical realism as well.

Yet zero reflection on Russia and it’s use of pure naked brutal armed force in invading another nation because they didn’t like who they were getting politically matey with ? 
 

there’s no correctness in your realism and no objectivity. Yes Russia felt threatened- politically - but no one crossed their border with soldiers. 

[jono]

23 hours ago, ramit said:

In the west we are free to have any opinion we want on this conflict, except not really.  To hope for peace is to be a Russian bot.  So much for freedom of opinion.

Just a thought here … so maybe you are a Russian Bot …. But, even so,  you can still voice your opinion and I bet you’ll still be here come kick off against Blackburn. So your little sign off is no more than saying “it’s not right, people are disagreeing with me” 

Pardon me while I weep for you trauma while you are free to voice your Bot opinion 

Quod erat demonstrandum 

[ramit]

7 hours ago, jono said:

Yet zero reflection on Russia and it’s use of pure naked brutal armed force in invading another nation because they didn’t like who they were getting politically matey with ? 
 

there’s no correctness in your realism and no objectivity. Yes Russia felt threatened- politically - but no one crossed their border with soldiers. 

You have everything upside down, I wonder where you get your information, well no I don't

Zero reflection on how this whole thing started, first with a western sponsored coup, then with naked armed aggression against the Russian speaking Ukrainians of the east when they objected to being vilified for being of Russian origin.  Ukraine shot itself in the foot there and then how about reflecting on the Minsk agreement and how Ukraine with western backing never intended to honor it.

Here is some correct realism for you, Russia will win this conflict, no matter what support Ukraine gets from the west short of actively engaging Russia in Ukraine, which they won´t do and hardly have the trained manpower to achieve anyway.  Russian military strength is considerably greater now than when the conflict started, the isolation tactics have failed to break their economy or their political muscle abroad.  They will continue to churn away at Ukrainian military manpower and equipment until they break the back of their opponents.  It's a bloody shame too, all of this could have been avoided.  Think of the grieving families on both sides, the broken bodies of survivors, the pain and suffering.  I do not support this war from either side, the madness must end, but I do understand how it happened. 

The arrogance, amnesia, hypocrisy and sickening double standards exhibited by the west and regurgitated by it's blind supporters apparently knows no bounds.

 

[ramit]

8 hours ago, jono said:

Just a thought here … so maybe you are a Russian Bot …. But, even so,  you can still voice your opinion and I bet you’ll still be here come kick off against Blackburn. So your little sign off is no more than saying “it’s not right, people are disagreeing with me” 

Pardon me while I weep for you trauma while you are free to voice your Bot opinion 

Quod erat demonstrandum 

You're a funny guy, invariably wrong on all things not Derby County, but at least you do amuse me at times.

So cheer up, you do have a purpose

[jono]

8 hours ago, ramit said:

You have everything upside down, I wonder where you get your information, well no I don't

Zero reflection on how this whole thing started, first with a western sponsored coup, then with naked armed aggression against the Russian speaking Ukrainians of the east when they objected to being vilified for being of Russian origin.  Ukraine shot itself in the foot there and then how about reflecting on the Minsk agreement and how Ukraine with western backing never intended to honor it.

Here is some correct realism for you, Russia will win this conflict, no matter what support Ukraine gets from the west short of actively engaging Russia in Ukraine, which they won´t do and hardly have the trained manpower to achieve anyway.  Russian military strength is considerably greater now than when the conflict started, the isolation tactics have failed to break their economy or their political muscle abroad.  They will continue to churn away at Ukrainian military manpower and equipment until they break the back of their opponents.  It's a bloody shame too, all of this could have been avoided.  Think of the grieving families on both sides, the broken bodies of survivors, the pain and suffering.  I do not support this war from either side, the madness must end, but I do understand how it happened. 

The arrogance, amnesia, hypocrisy and sickening double standards exhibited by the west and regurgitated by it's blind supporters apparently knows no bounds.

 

The Ukrainian people don’t seem to think I they are being governed by a western sponsored coup do they. ? Odd that they weren’t relived and full of joy when the Russians invaded. 

[Archied]

8 hours ago, jono said:

Yet zero reflection on Russia and it’s use of pure naked brutal armed force in invading another nation because they didn’t like who they were getting politically matey with ? 
 

there’s no correctness in your realism and no objectivity. Yes Russia felt threatened- politically - but no one crossed their border with soldiers. 

No one has crossed our borders but make no mistake we are deep in this war as are the USA , probably a spit from all out ww3 , it’s the nuclear threat that is holding back by the skin of its teeth the conflict being called for what it is now , a war between the west and Russia with other perceived threat countries dancing round the edge of the conflict , until we call it for what it has developed into then there is no chance this ends well for the world

Edited July 11 by Archied

[Ram-Alf]

10 hours ago, ramit said:

Russia will win this conflict, no matter what support Ukraine gets from the west short of actively engaging Russia in Ukraine, which they won´t do and hardly have the trained manpower to achieve anyway.  Russian military strength is considerably greater now than when the conflict started, 

I'm just going to dip my toe into this debate...again 😉

Below is what I've pulled from the internet.

As of 2023, NATO had approximately 3.36 million active military personnel 1. The United States, the largest and most militarily advanced member, has around 1.3m active personnel 2. The country with the second largest number of military personnel was Turkey, with just around 447,000 personnel 3. Since 1949, NATO has increased its collective military power and today it has the capability to count on nearly 3.5-million personnel, troops and civilian combined.

Russia are losing military personnel and equipment as if you leave a tap running...it's pissing manpower and equipment down the plughole, Now I am not privy to Putin's or NATOs figures, I like the vast majority get info from the media...in all forms, Are we being lied too I don't know, But I'll take my chances with the Wests media rather than Putin's war machine.

In part in your your post @ramit I too don't think NATO will send in ground troops...unless Putin is foolish enough to have attacked a NATO bordering Country, And if NATO do then China...imo will be forced to send their troops in as they'd believe this would be looking after their interests.

Diplomacy looks to be the only option I guess, What was a 4 week jolly has turned into something that "could" have devastating consequences for  the World...again 😡  

[ramit]

7 hours ago, Ram-Alf said:

I'm just going to dip my toe into this debate...again 😉

Below is what I've pulled from the internet.

As of 2023, NATO had approximately 3.36 million active military personnel 1. The United States, the largest and most militarily advanced member, has around 1.3m active personnel 2. The country with the second largest number of military personnel was Turkey, with just around 447,000 personnel 3. Since 1949, NATO has increased its collective military power and today it has the capability to count on nearly 3.5-million personnel, troops and civilian combined.

Russia are losing military personnel and equipment as if you leave a tap running...it's pissing manpower and equipment down the plughole, Now I am not privy to Putin's or NATOs figures, I like the vast majority get info from the media...in all forms, Are we being lied too I don't know, But I'll take my chances with the Wests media rather than Putin's war machine.

In part in your your post @ramit I too don't think NATO will send in ground troops...unless Putin is foolish enough to have attacked a NATO bordering Country, And if NATO do then China...imo will be forced to send their troops in as they'd believe this would be looking after their interests.

Diplomacy looks to be the only option I guess, What was a 4 week jolly has turned into something that "could" have devastating consequences for  the World...again 😡  

Of course we are being lied to, this is war after all and truth being it's first casualty and from both sides I may add.

A considerable portion of US manpower is tied down in the multitudes of their foreign bases ATM, whatever changes to that can be expected.   Russia's weapons and ammo production outdoes the combined west, numerous analysts maintain.  Russia is used to taking great losses in war, yet continuing and no one has yet fully conquered their territories.  Are western democracies willing to make the manpower sacrifices that Russia won't hesitate to make?  Actually, that won't likely even come into consideration as nuclear weapons will likely be devastating populations.  There are actually some psychotic warmongers talking about the use of low yield nuclear weapons as an option in modern warfare. 

Things are definitely ramping up at a worrisome rate, now Poland says it will shoot down Russian missiles over the border.  The F16's are being delivered but from what I read plans are to have them take off from airfields outside Ukraine's border, to which Russia has promised to level any airfield hosting them.  The situation is deadly dangerous and very few are calling for peace talks.  There were supposed peace talks in Switzerland that excluded the participation of Russia, well what good is that eh?

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, jono said:

The Ukrainian people don’t seem to think I they are being governed by a western sponsored coup do they. ? Odd that they weren’t relived and full of joy when the Russians invaded. 

He keeps peddling the same Kremlin propaganda and yet he calls anyone who contests his views 'brainwashed'.

 

[Stive Pesley]

11 hours ago, ramit said:

They will continue to churn away at Ukrainian military manpower and equipment until they break the back of their opponents

 

[ramit]

8 hours ago, Crewton said:

He keeps peddling the same Kremlin propaganda and yet he calls anyone who contests his views 'brainwashed'.

 

You just can't leave well enough alone, always back to the insults and that really speaks volumes