The academy model

[TheAllestreeRam]

20 hours ago, angieram said:

I am not sure why you keep going back to the academy model being the problem when you state yourself it is really the recruitment that is at fault.

Because the academy model is Mels antidote to the issues with recruitment. If the problem is with recruitment and we are looking to the academy for a remedy, then we can call it into question, despite how well the academy is going? We still havent really sorted out our recruitment at all in the same 6 year period that the academy project has been running. 

I feel like it has been less 'thank god the academy has been there' and more 'recruitment hasnt worked, the academy is the way forward' I guess it depends on whether you see it this way or not. 

Had we got our recruitment right as Barnsley, Norwich, Brentford have in the last few seasons then we might not be falling foul of financial fair play now, of course getting recruitment right is easier said than done but if other clubs can do it why cant we? Academy player sales still havent produced enough funds to save us. 

20 hours ago, angieram said:

Ideal world we grow our own and recruit to complement them, selling only those who outgrow us. I have less confidence in that recruitment than in the academy continuing to produce good players for many years to come. 

I think this is where we differ, I am perhaps more sceptical of the academies ability to produce players consistently, but that is just my own view. 

I havent said at any point that having an academy is wrong, we need balance but i dont think that the way the club is being run is particularly balanced, but again you might disagree. 

I accept the view that it isnt either/or and that recruitment is part of it and this is my point. I havent seen any evidence (bar maybe Jozwiak) that we are trying to sharpen up our recruitment, instead we seem to be expecting that sibley, bird and co. can save us both financially and on the pitch. Does that mean the academy was a bad investment? No. Is this a bad plan by the execs and the owner? I would argue yes. 

You might also disgree that this was the plan but I am taking Mel for his word. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by TheAllestreeRam

[TheAllestreeRam]

19 hours ago, Charlotte Ram said:

 

Brentford are not the brilliantly run club everyone says, if you look at losses without player sales (see below) they lost £34 million in year 19/20. (£9million loss after player sales), a team cannot rely on selling that amount of talent every season to survive or meet FFP. 

acknowledgement to Swissramble for the numbers.

 

 

 

 

 

I feel like this is cherry picking stats a bit. Brentford can afford to spend more off the pitch because they used their money very well on it. 

They also built a new stadium which I imagine contributed a big chuck of that spend. 

[Jubbs]

19 hours ago, Charlotte Ram said:

Brentford are not the brilliantly run club everyone say

?

[Ghost of Clough]

12 minutes ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

Because the academy model is Mels antidote to the issues with recruitment. If the problem is with recruitment and we are looking to the academy for a remedy, then we can call it into question, despite how well the academy is going? We still havent really sorted out our recruitment at all in the same 6 year period that the academy project has been running. 

I feel like it has been less 'thank god the academy has been there' and more 'recruitment hasnt worked, the academy is the way forward' I guess it depends on whether you see it this way or not. 

Hence why we didn't bother recruiting Marshall, Byrne, Ibe, Jozwiak and Kazim along with the loanees this season?

12 minutes ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

Had we got our recruitment right as Barnsley, Norwich, Brentford have in the last few seasons then we might not be falling foul of financial fair play now, of course getting recruitment right is easier said than done but if other clubs can do it why cant we? Academy player sales still havent produced enough funds to save us though. 

Explain how we're falling foul of P&S. I see we've been found guilty of filing non-compliant accounts, but nothing else.

12 minutes ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

I think this is where we differ, I am perhaps more sceptical of the academies ability to produce players consistently, but that is just my own view. 

I havent said at any point that having an academy is wrong, we need balance but i dont think that the way the club is being run is particularly balanced, but again you might disagree. 

You seem to be arguing against as point that no-one is making. @angieram quite clearly stated utilising the academy AND first team recruitment. That means recruiting to fill voids the academy products can't. For example, our U23 CBs aren't ready to be regulars in the first team, so we'll recruit 2, 3 or even 4 of them this summer. However, Ebosele and McDonald are ready to deputise for Byrne so we won't be after a RB

12 minutes ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

I accept the view that it isnt either/or and that recruitment is part of it and this is my point. I havent seen any evidence (bar maybe Jozwiak) that we are trying to sharpen up our recruitment, instead we seem to be expecting that sibley, bird and co. can save us both financially and on the pitch. Does that mean the academy was a bad investment? No. Is this a bad plan by the execs and the owner? I would argue yes. 

You might also disgree that this was the plan but I am taking Mel for his word. 

Marshall, Byrne and Jozwiak have been very good signings, with two of them proving exceptional value for money. Kazim was also recruited as a backup or even 3rd choice CF and also proven to be goof value. We took a punt on Ibe due to our financial position which so far hasn't worked out. Te Wierik seemed to be a victim of circumstance, both Covid and a change in manager.
Last season we signed Bielik who was one of the best players in the league before picking up another injury and Shinnie who again has been good value since signing on a free.

There's enough evidence there to suggest recruitment has improved, but we'll soon see how much of that was down to Cocu's influence.

[Gringo]

2 hours ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

I feel like this is cherry picking stats a bit. Brentford can afford to spend more off the pitch because they used their money very well on it. 

They also built a new stadium which I imagine contributed a big chuck of that spend. 

Looking in more depth at Brentford there are a couple of similarities with the Rams

1. They are not self funding their owner Mathew Benham has injected £103million in loans and some equity, not as much as Mel but the Rams are a much bigger Club.

2. Brentford do not own their stadium their owner now holds a charge on it, the same as DCFC

So the only difference id=S their approach to recruitment.

[TheAllestreeRam]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Hence why we didn't bother recruiting Marshall, Byrne, Ibe, Jozwiak and Kazim along with the loanees this season?

Explain how we're falling foul of P&S. I see we've been found guilty of filing non-compliant accounts, but nothing else.

You seem to be arguing against as point that no-one is making. @angieram quite clearly stated utilising the academy AND first team recruitment. That means recruiting to fill voids the academy products can't. For example, our U23 CBs aren't ready to be regulars in the first team, so we'll recruit 2, 3 or even 4 of them this summer. However, Ebosele and McDonald are ready to deputise for Byrne so we won't be after a RB

Marshall, Byrne and Jozwiak have been very good signings, with two of them proving exceptional value for money. Kazim was also recruited as a backup or even 3rd choice CF and also proven to be goof value. We took a punt on Ibe due to our financial position which so far hasn't worked out. Te Wierik seemed to be a victim of circumstance, both Covid and a change in manager.
Last season we signed Bielik who was one of the best players in the league before picking up another injury and Shinnie who again has been good value since signing on a free.

There's enough evidence there to suggest recruitment has improved, but we'll soon see how much of that was down to Cocu's influence.

Value for money on signings has definitely improved but it appears to me that there was no real strategy or ambition in these signings beyond picking up a bargain and plugging the gaps in a seriously weak team. It is an improvement but we are still a long way from recruiting players with a clear identity and strategy that fit the clubs style of play and have a longer term value. Only Jozwiak is likely to fetch a profit, which we desperately need right now. Not every signing has to be a uncovered gem but atleast giving it a go is worth a try, after Jozwiak the next youngest player from last summer who plays is Bryne and hes 29 now. We have improved but there is still quite a way to go for me.

I am simply disputing the balance between recruitment and the academy that you are suggesting. Mel is suggesting a core of the squad being made up of home grown talent from the academy, something no team has managed to be successful at this level with such high proportions of players from their academy over a long period of time. We might be able to do it but its a big gamble and we would be the first to do it. 

Also how do we know for sure that the U23 centre backs arent ready but Ebosele and Mcdonald are after less than 250 minutes first team football combined? For me, thats too early to tell let alone hold off making a signing because of them, even players who have looked good for a few games havent gone on to make it at this level. 

[Comrade 86]

4 hours ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

Because the academy model is Mels antidote to the issues with recruitment.

See this is the hill you're dying on buddy. Just because Mel aspired to having a fair chunk of the team 'home-bred' doesn't infer that that policy is at the expense of better recruitment. Based on what I've read, the premise is rooted in sustainability and not at the expense of recruitment of suitable senior pro's, an antidote to FFP restrictions if you like.

The fact that we've brought in fairly expensive players such as Waghorn, Jozwiak and especially Bilelik would seem to support that argument in spades. If Mel has stated otherwise, perhaps you quote provide a quote to support that belief?

As for knowing who is ready and who is not, of course we don't know for sure, but I'd wager the coaches who work with them every day have a better idea than any of us. Some may have been pitched in earlier last season than was ideal but that's not a sensible metric on which to judge the policies in place as our hand was forced at time due to our never-ending injury list and also the volume of games being crammed into a shortened season. I'd also point out that until they are given a chance to step up, nobody really knows for sure how these younger players will cope.

[TheAllestreeRam]

5 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

See this is the hill you're dying on buddy. Just because Mel aspired to having a fair chunk of the team 'home-bred' doesn't infer that that policy is at the expense of better recruitment. Based on what I've read, the premise is rooted in sustainability and not at the expense of recruitment of suitable senior pro's, an antidote to FFP restrictions if you like.

The fact that we've brought in fairly expensive players such as Waghorn, Jozwiak and especially Bilelik would seem to support that argument in spades. If Mel has stated otherwise, perhaps you quote provide a quote to support that belief?

As for knowing who is ready and who is not, of course we don't know for sure, but I'd wager the coaches who work with them every day have a better idea than any of us. Some may have been pitched in earlier last season than was ideal but that's not a sensible metric on which to judge the policies in place as our hand was forced at time due to our never-ending injury list and also the volume of games being crammed into a shortened season. I'd also point out that until they are given a chance to step up, nobody really knows for sure how these younger players will cope.

It is dying on a hill if i havent changed my opinion to yours? I have read and taken onboard everything you have said, but I just havent heard anything concrete enough to change my opinion. Very similar to yourself I imagine. 

I havent suggested at any point that we have stopped recruiting but we have wheeled it back significantly, its not either/or. No matter how good the recruitment, if half the playing squad are from the academy and are not up to scratch, the results wont be either. 

Buying expensive players is business as usual for us, not a change in recruitment strategy. Although Jozwiak and Bielik are younger, they were still bought when their stock was high. 

By not replacing senior pros e.g Bryson, Holmes, Huddlestone etc. we force the coaches hand to delve into the academy when injuries inevitably come, not replacing them was a decision and if Mels plan was as we have discussed, then it looks as though it was deliberate. 

True about giving the players the chance though, maybe thats where a loan out would be good as a trial run but that doesnt seem a big part of our player development either. 

 

[Ghost of Clough]

2 hours ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

Value for money on signings has definitely improved but it appears to me that there was no real strategy or ambition in these signings beyond picking up a bargain and plugging the gaps in a seriously weak team. It is an improvement but we are still a long way from recruiting players with a clear identity and strategy that fit the clubs style of play and have a longer term value. Only Jozwiak is likely to fetch a profit, which we desperately need right now. Not every signing has to be a uncovered gem but atleast giving it a go is worth a try, after Jozwiak the next youngest player from last summer who plays is Bryne and hes 29 now. We have improved but there is still quite a way to go for me.

1. At the start fo the summer we had a very young squad, so adding experience was viral

2. We only made 4 permanent signings so the second youngest signing being 28 isn't really a concern

2 hours ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

I am simply disputing the balance between recruitment and the academy that you are suggesting. Mel is suggesting a core of the squad being made up of home grown talent from the academy, something no team has managed to be successful at this level with such high proportions of players from their academy over a long period of time. We might be able to do it but its a big gamble and we would be the first to do it. 

Did he suggest it as an absolute must or a dream?

Have they not been successful at it because they haven't invested enough in the youth setup? Norwich were promoted in 18/19 with Lewis, Aarons, Godfrey and Cantwell as regulars. Reading were 7th this season with Rinohmota, Richards, Olise, Holmes and McIntyre making up their first team. Both are two of the biggest academy spenders in the league.

2 hours ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

Also how do we know for sure that the U23 centre backs arent ready but Ebosele and Mcdonald are after less than 250 minutes first team football combined? For me, thats too early to tell let alone hold off making a signing because of them, even players who have looked good for a few games havent gone on to make it at this level. 

How do you know for sure a £10m signing from the Bundesliga will be a top player in the Championship? You don't. But, by scouting/watching you reduce that risk. Having watched every game possible from the U18s and U23s over the past 10 years I feel I have a reasonable ability to tell if a player is ready to step up or not.

Our CBs are not ready to step up for anything more than in an emergency right now. Whereas McDonald and Ebosele look ready based on what I've seen.

[Comrade 86]

10 minutes ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

It is dying on a hill if i havent changed my opinion to yours?

It's a figure of speech ?‍♂️ 

I'll just be quiet now and leave to your echo chamber I reckon.

Edited June 10, 2021 by 86 Hair Islands

[Will Hughes Hair]

I’d be more confident of success in the model if we’d had the balls to stick by Cocu.

#stillhappytodieonthathill

[BramcoteRam84]

On 08/06/2021 at 19:17, Leeds Ram said:

Nathan Doyle at the time was regarded as a very hot property and was capped at an exceptionally young age for wales, so were lee holmes and Miles Addison. Ball scored goals at the younger levels (and dominated a strong west ham team) as did paris simmons. Izle Mcleoud ran rings around Majorca in a friendly and was named motm when one Samuel Eto'o was on the pitch. All of these didn't live up to their potential for whatever reason. Both Pablo Mills and Hanson were in and around the first team when they were young as was Mason Bennett. 

Claiming a lot of these players will be able to compete week in week out at a good upper championship level is nothing more than modern day soothsaying at this point. In addition,  I'm not convinced they're substantially better than the youth products who broke through to the first team before were either. A lot of these lads are not babies; Knight is 20, watson has just turned 20, Bird is 20, Buchanan is 20, Mcdonald is 19 and Sibley is 19. They've generally had terrible seasons after a couple had a good backend to the last one, it's hardly proof of any future stardom. I believe will hughes established himself in our first team when he was 18 and Hendrik when he was 18/19 too I think. They were dominating the midfield by the time they were 20/21 so the developmental difference between the comparison is substantial. If we think back further, look at Tom Huddlestone and how good he was at 17... 

I'm not saying none will make the grade, merely that the belief that this crop is substantially more gifted in comparison to the others is potentially short sighted and can't be relied upon to guarantee results. The lesson from this season should be a sprinkling of the best talent from the youth level is a good thing but that overusing inexperienced, decently talented (but not fantastic) youngsters is a bad idea. 

None of those players ever looked good in the first team in competitive games. Addison aside as he was affected by injury.

Buchanan Bird Knight Sibley have proven themselves at this level already. Bird and Sibley had second season syndrome but both were excellent towards the end of 19/20 season. Bird was a stand out championship performer for the second half of the 19/20 season. Buchanan - first half of 20/21 season I can’t think of many left backs in the league that were better, yes his form dipped but it was his first season. Knight was first name on team sheet for first half of the season and was earning rave reviews in the recent internationals he’s played. Those 4 have proven they can not only handle but flourish at this level and I would expect them all to be as a minimum championship players but probably play at a higher level in their careers. It’s not soothsaying, they’ve done it and they need to kick on, I think they will either here or at other clubs. 
 

Ive seen many youngsters over the years and you can tell the ones that are good straight away. Riggott Huddlestone Hughes Hendrick (although not to listen to some on here) you knew were going to make it, I never got that with the players you mentioned, even Hanson and Ball (although I’m surprised he fell through the leagues as he did). I do see the quality of Knight Buchanan Bird and Sibley, and I’m excited about the likes of Watson and McDonald also among others. I was really excited about Festy but now extremely worried we might now lose him.

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by BramcoteRam84

[Leeds Ram]

36 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

None of those players ever looked good in the first team in competitive games. Addison aside as he was affected by injury.

Buchanan Bird Knight Sibley have proven themselves at this level already. Bird and Sibley had second season syndrome but both were excellent towards the end of 19/20 season. Bird was a stand out championship performer for the second half of the 19/20 season. Buchanan - first half of 20/21 season I can’t think of many left backs in the league that were better, yes his form dipped but it was his first season. Knight was first name on team sheet for first half of the season and was earning rave reviews in the recent internationals he’s played. Those 4 have proven they can not only handle but flourish at this level and I would expect them all to be as a minimum championship players but probably play at a higher level in their careers. It’s not soothsaying, they’ve done it and they need to kick on, I think they will either here or at other clubs. 
 

Ive seen many youngsters over the years and you can tell the ones that are good straight away. Riggott Huddlestone Hughes Hendrick (although not to listen to some on here) you knew were going to make it, I never got that with the players you mentioned, even Hanson and Ball (although I’m surprised he fell through the leagues as he did). I do see the quality of Knight Buchanan Bird and Sibley, and I’m excited about the likes of Watson and McDonald also among others. I was really excited about Festy but now extremely worried we might now lose him.

 

That's just not true when considering players like Holmes, Doyle or Addison though who all at one point looked like first team players. Even Callum Ball had a great game against west ham where he bullied their defence. 

Those players have hardly proven themselves at this level by being in and out of a team that accumulated the 3rd lowest points total this year. That's not proving that you have the ability to play at this level of football consistently in the future. Plenty of youngsters have a good spell of form at some point and then drop off as they can't make the grade consistently.  Sibley has barely been involved with Bird and Buchanan dropping in and out of the team as well. Huddlestone, Hughes, and Hendrik were playing more games and having a bigger effect on the pitch at a younger age than the current crop of players we have.

I personally think these younger players aren't as good as we think they are- certainly not as talented as Hughes or Hendrik were at their age and nowhere near Huddlestone's level of ability. Not seen the rave reviews for knight in the internationals besides scoring against a semi professional side either. I'm not saying that they won't make it but I just think atm we have a tendency to place a lot of stock in these players that have not shown they can become good championship players. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Leeds Ram

[Ghost of Clough]

On 08/06/2021 at 19:17, Leeds Ram said:

Nathan Doyle at the time was regarded as a very hot property and was capped at an exceptionally young age for wales, so were lee holmes and Miles Addison. Ball scored goals at the younger levels (and dominated a strong west ham team) as did paris simmons. Izle Mcleoud ran rings around Majorca in a friendly and was named motm when one Samuel Eto'o was on the pitch. All of these didn't live up to their potential for whatever reason. Both Pablo Mills and Hanson were in and around the first team when they were young as was Mason Bennett. 

Doyle - Can't remember much linking him with big clubs. England youth caps up to U19 in a period when youth development in the country was very weak. Also just 9 games for the first team during the Burley/Brown years so not much to base your "hot property" tag on.

Holmes - Injuries prevented him being as good as he could have. 

Addison - another ruined by injuries, and badly advised after his first where he felt he needed to bulk up to deal with Championship forwards.

Ball - don't think anyone ever felt he could be more than a Championship forward. I understand he stopped enjoying playing football

McLeod - strange because I recall people thinking he was a but of a donkey. 

Mills - another who no one actually felt could be more than a Championship player. 

Hanson - just one if those useful utility players and another very few felt could be more than Championship quality.

Bennett - Injuries played a big part in him not kicking on, so too did his lack of intelligence. He'd still be a useful player in our team

[Leeds Ram]

15 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Doyle - Can't remember much linking him with big clubs. England youth caps up to U19 in a period when youth development in the country was very weak. Also just 9 games for the first team during the Burley/Brown years so not much to base your "hot property" tag on.

Holmes - Injuries prevented him being as good as he could have. 

Addison - another ruined by injuries, and badly advised after his first where he felt he needed to bulk up to deal with Championship forwards.

Ball - don't think anyone ever felt he could be more than a Championship forward. I understand he stopped enjoying playing football

McLeod - strange because I recall people thinking he was a but of a donkey. 

Mills - another who no one actually felt could be more than a Championship player. 

Hanson - just one if those useful utility players and another very few felt could be more than Championship quality.

Bennett - Injuries played a big part in him not kicking on, so too did his lack of intelligence. He'd still be a useful player in our team

sorry got Doyle confused with Nyatanga. 

The point was these players having experience in the first team from a young age and more than a couple were billed for big things before for whatever reason they never made it to the heights people expected. Hanson, Holmes, Addison, and Bennett all came through early and all had experience playing in the first team from a young age- as I've said before I'm not saying the ones coming through now will necessarily go down the same route but I also don't think they've shown the massive promise that Hendrik, Hughes and Huddlestone all showed at younger ages. 

[BramcoteRam84]

1 hour ago, Leeds Ram said:

That's just not true when considering players like Holmes, Doyle or Addison though who all at one point looked like first team players. Even Callum Ball had a great game against west ham where he bullied their defence. 

Those players have hardly proven themselves at this level by being in and out of a team that accumulated the 3rd lowest points total this year. That's not proving that you have the ability to play at this level of football consistently in the future. Plenty of youngsters have a good spell of form at some point and then drop off as they can't make the grade consistently.  Sibley has barely been involved with Bird and Buchanan dropping in and out of the team as well. Huddlestone, Hughes, and Hendrik were playing more games and having a bigger effect on the pitch at a younger age than the current crop of players we have.

I personally think these younger players aren't as good as we think they are- certainly not as talented as Hughes or Hendrik were at their age and nowhere near Huddlestone's level of ability. Not seen the rave reviews for knight in the internationals besides scoring against a semi professional side either. I'm not saying that they won't make it but I just think atm we have a tendency to place a lot of stock in these players that have not shown they can become good championship players. 

But they have shown they’re good championship players. Already. That’s the point you seem to be ignoring. Forget age it’s games played, Knight is at least at same level Hendrick was at after same number of games. Buchanan was outstanding first half of last season as was Bird the end of the previous (for about 20+ games in a row). When was anyone talking about about Holmes and Doyle like that - never. I’m not talking Derby fans here but pundits. Even Andy the fat red dog Reid is raving about what a player Knight is going to be. He will surpass Hendrick. 
 

Huddlestone if he was a few yards quicker would’ve played 50+ times for England. Hughes I still think could play for England. Both were better prospects than those I mention but I cannot think of any other Derby prospects in the past 20 years as good as these. Doyle and Holmes aren’t even fit to lace these lads boots by comparison. 

[Leeds Ram]

5 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

But they have shown they’re good championship players. Already. That’s the point you seem to be ignoring. Forget age it’s games played, Knight is at least at same level Hendrick was at after same number of games. Buchanan was outstanding first half of last season as was Bird the end of the previous (for about 20+ games in a row). When was anyone talking about about Holmes and Doyle like that - never. I’m not talking Derby fans here but pundits. Even Andy the fat red dog Reid is raving about what a player Knight is going to be. He will surpass Hendrick. 
 

Huddlestone if he was a few yards quicker would’ve played 50+ times for England. Hughes I still think could play for England. Both were better prospects than those I mention but I cannot think of any other Derby prospects in the past 20 years as good as these. Doyle and Holmes aren’t even fit to lace these lads boots by comparison. 

They haven't though... they've offered next to nothing this season in midfield or going forward. Buchanan had a good run in the first half of the season but severely tailed off to the point he was replaced by an ageing replacement.  I'm genuinely unsure how they've proven to be 'good championship players' when they've been in and out of a team that earned the 3rd fewest points in this division. Hendrik had more game time at a younger age than these lads and was having a bigger effect on games too. 

Personally, I wouldn't be particularly bothered if we sold them off if a half decent offer came in for Knight, Bird or Buchanan. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Leeds Ram

[BramcoteRam84]

7 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

sorry got Doyle confused with Nyatanga. 

The point was these players having experience in the first team from a young age and more than a couple were billed for big things before for whatever reason they never made it to the heights people expected. Hanson, Holmes, Addison, and Bennett all came through early and all had experience playing in the first team from a young age- as I've said before I'm not saying the ones coming through now will necessarily go down the same route but I also don't think they've shown the massive promise that Hendrik, Hughes and Huddlestone all showed at younger ages. 

Never got the same feeling about Nyatanga (apart from his toe poke at the Trent end!)  He was capped by Wales young because they didn’t have anyone else decent at the time. Still, he held his own in the championship for a good few seasons. Addison would’ve had a better career if not for injury. All these lads are better. Clearly you’re entitled to your opinion, I would say we have overhyped our youngsters in the past but I wouldn’t say we are now, and that’s based on what I’ve seen them do for the first team not what they’ve done in the U18s and U23s where you cannot really judge.

[Leeds Ram]

9 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

But they have shown they’re good championship players. Already. That’s the point you seem to be ignoring. Forget age it’s games played, Knight is at least at same level Hendrick was at after same number of games. Buchanan was outstanding first half of last season as was Bird the end of the previous (for about 20+ games in a row). When was anyone talking about about Holmes and Doyle like that - never. I’m not talking Derby fans here but pundits. Even Andy the fat red dog Reid is raving about what a player Knight is going to be. He will surpass Hendrick. 
 

Huddlestone if he was a few yards quicker would’ve played 50+ times for England. Hughes I still think could play for England. Both were better prospects than those I mention but I cannot think of any other Derby prospects in the past 20 years as good as these. Doyle and Holmes aren’t even fit to lace these lads boots by comparison. 

you're also completely incorrect about Lee Holmes 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/derby_county/3131360.stm

[Leeds Ram]

6 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Never got the same feeling about Nyatanga (apart from his toe poke at the Trent end!)  He was capped by Wales young because they didn’t have anyone else decent at the time. Still, he held his own in the championship for a good few seasons. Addison would’ve had a better career if not for injury. All these lads are better. Clearly you’re entitled to your opinion, I would say we have overhyped our youngsters in the past but I wouldn’t say we are now, and that’s based on what I’ve seen them do for the first team not what they’ve done in the U18s and U23s where you cannot really judge.

He was the youngest player ever to be capped by wales at the time. It's hardly the case Knight is keeping out world beaters to get into Ireland's squad. atm either You're entitled to your view, I don't see any evidence of these lads being any better than those such as Addison or Nyatanga as of yet. I hope I'm wrong and they turn out to be very good players but I'm not seeing the qualities that people are hyping about. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Leeds Ram