The academy model

[TheAllestreeRam]

Could be a little controversial but I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on the current academy model. 

Here are mine:

Back in ~2015 Mel made the statement that he wanted around half of the first team to be made up on academy players within 5 years. Here we are at that point and that hasnt seemed to materialise. I can understand the model given our continuous failure in the transfer market and heavy investment in the academy. Develop younger and sell on for profit makes sense, bringing through player with 'the Derby way' who can slot into the first team, offer the best prospects in the country an easy path into championship level football to attract the best. However I am sceptical whether this can happen in reality. 

I cant think of another club in world football that has half their team made up of academy players and still remain competitive (maybe Athletic Bilbao?). 

If the model is also to sell the academy players when they can command a fee, which is seems to be the case (bogle, lowe, whittaker) then how can we be competitive while also selling the best our academy produces? We would probably need to be churning out a Will Hughes or Bogle in half of the positions in the team every 3/4 years if promotion/the premier league is still the end goal. I dont think we can sell players and replace them at that rate. 

I also dont think that we are able to bring in the best the country has to offer, and when we do have them, the bigger academies can still poach them for pennies (Kellan Gordon). 

This certainly isnt an academy bashing post either, I think the young lads have done really well under the circumstances this season, but I think too much has been asked of them before they are really ready. 

Do we need to have a bit of a rethink if there is a change in ownership? 

[BathRam72]

Interesting thoughts.

I would argue we do currently have half the team of academy players, the problem is they aren't good enough as a collective.

To achieve this you would need to churn out at least 5 or 6 players every couple of years that are of championship standard and hope we keep them all.

Any academy would be lucky to produce one or 2 that are capable of staying the course in the championship in a decent team, every few years. 

All young players develop at a different rate and most will never make the grade.

I personally think that if you want to be successful you should intergrade one maybe 2 academy players at a time not 5or 6 9unless they are Will Hughes standard or above)

[Malty]

I was thinking of posting exactly the same thing. Our very best young academy prospects (delap and Gordon) get sold. Many of the rest don’t make the grade. You are left with the middling players that COULD become great. But mostly will end up in the championship or lower. Is it really a mode that is sustainable?

But, then you get the occasional player that we can sell for a few quid and pay the wages for another period of time. Whether that’s Bogle and Lowe (wages for a year or so??) or Whittaker (wages for a month??).

But you need basically one a year to help pay the wages, which isn’t realistic. 
 

in summary, I struggle to see this as a sustainable business model, and I don’t see it as a way to get into the prem. unless we get very very lucky.

I would add how many of our academy players right now our championship standard?

I would say two.

and how many could be in the next two years ...

I would say two maybe three.

This strategy just doesn’t work, which I find really quite sad.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Malty

[angieram]

Kaide Gordon.

[cheron85]

40 minutes ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

Back in ~2015 Mel made the statement that he wanted around half of the first team to be made up on academy players within 5 years. Here we are at that point and that hasnt seemed to materialise.

I don't personally think this should be taken so literally 

When you're in a leadership position - Especially one which is more 'political' than practical (football chairman being in that camp) - You tend to make statements which are indicative of ambition rather than being an actual goal

I don't think Mel was ever intending for half the team to be from the academy - I just think he meant to showcase how important the investment is, showcase the ambition to be a top academy and justify the amount of money we were throwing at it

[TheAllestreeRam]

28 minutes ago, angieram said:

Kaide Gordon.

Got confused with my gordons but thats the player I meant. 

Edited June 8, 2021 by TheAllestreeRam

[TheAllestreeRam]

29 minutes ago, Malty said:

I was thinking of posting exactly the same thing. Our very best young academy prospects (delap and Gordon) get sold. Many of the rest don’t make the grade. You are left with the middling players that COULD become great. But mostly will end up in the championship or lower. Is it really a mode that is sustainable?

But, then you get the occasional player that we can sell for a few quid and pay the wages for another period of time. Whether that’s Bogle and Lowe (wages for a year or so??) or Whittaker (wages for a month??).

But you need basically one a year to help pay the wages, which isn’t realistic. 
 

in summary, I struggle to see this as a sustainable business model, and I don’t see it as a way to get into the prem. unless we get very very lucky.

I would add how many of our academy players right now our championship standard?

I would say two.

and how many could be in the next two years ...

I would say two maybe three.

This strategy just doesn’t work, which I find really quite sad.

Id forgotten about Delap, which is another great example. 

I think 2/3 in the first team of championship standard is good and the best most teams could ever really hope for. 

I feel for Mel as he has tried something, but it just hasnt really worked and maybe a bit of a knee jerk response to how much of his money he has put into the club without getting the desired result, but it wasnt really a well thought out idea in reality, which is a shame. 

 

[Angry Ram]

Waste of time and money. 

[TheAllestreeRam]

26 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

I don't personally think this should be taken so literally 

When you're in a leadership position - Especially one which is more 'political' than practical (football chairman being in that camp) - You tend to make statements which are indicative of ambition rather than being an actual goal

I don't think Mel was ever intending for half the team to be from the academy - I just think he meant to showcase how important the investment is, showcase the ambition to be a top academy and justify the amount of money we were throwing at it

Perhaps not... but I think even the current level of academy players in the first team is over what we can reasonably be competitive with. 

[Curtains]

2 minutes ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

Perhaps not... but I think even the current level of academy players in the first team is over what we can reasonably be competitive with. 

I’m quite encouraged about the Academy at the moment to be honest. 
 

The U23s have been very competitive lately .

The Academy players have to be introduced into the first team at some time or other or go on loan .

I am more confident than most it would seem about next season 

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Curtains

[Tyler Durden]

27 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

I don't personally think this should be taken so literally 

When you're in a leadership position - Especially one which is more 'political' than practical (football chairman being in that camp) - You tend to make statements which are indicative of ambition rather than being an actual goal

I don't think Mel was ever intending for half the team to be from the academy - I just think he meant to showcase how important the investment is, showcase the ambition to be a top academy and justify the amount of money we were throwing at it

The issue is that as soon as statements are made like that, whether it be a vision or a misson goal, then they quite rightly are taken literally - why else would you not? Again I think Mel Morris has been guilty of making bold statements with the best intentions which unfortunately ultimately he will and should be measured against. Not as a stick to beat him with but as an indicator of his success in his role - would be the same for any MD of any company coming in whom maps out their three year, five year plan etc. If its not delivered on then quite rightly questions are then asked. Of course Morris doesn't have any shareholders per se to answer to but he does have the club supporters.

But to agree with some of the other comments made am not sure exactly how realistic this statement was in the first instance but can't fault the guy for having grandiose ambitions.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

I think the biggest problem with investing so heavily in the academy is that it's so unpredictable. There's no guarantee that the next crop will be any good.

Contrast that with investing heavily in setting up a Brentford-style recruitment system; you know the talent is always going to be out there and it's just a case of making the right decision on who to sign. Obviously that's easier said than done, mind.

[Curtains]

2 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

The issue is that as soon as statements are made like that, whether it be a vision or a misson goal, then they quite rightly are taken literally - why else would you not? Again I think Mel Morris has been guilty of making bold statements with the best intentions which unfortunately ultimately he will and should be measured against. Not as a stick to beat him with but as an indicator of his success in his role - would be the same for any MD of any company coming in whom maps out their three year, five year plan etc. If its not delivered on then quite rightly questions are then asked. Of course Morris doesn't have any shareholders per se to answer to but he does have the club supporters.

But to agree with some of the other comments made am not sure exactly how realistic this statement was in the first instance but can't fault the guy for having grandiose ambitions.

I think at times Mel has been naive in his thinking about the Academy and the first team but in retrospect it’s all down to the cost of running a competitive Championship team without promotion to the Premier League. 
 

I really think me included we have been harsh on Mel. 
 

Not getting promotion has ultimately cost DCFC but all is not lost .

 

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

11 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

Waste of time and money. 

Good job we wasted that time and money as offloading youth players has kept the cashflow going over the last few months by the looks of it.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

5 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I think the biggest problem with investing so heavily in the academy is that it's so unpredictable. There's no guarantee that the next crop will be any good.

Contrast that with investing heavily in setting up a Brentford-style recruitment system; you know the talent is always going to be out there and it's just a case of making the right decision on who to sign. Obviously that's easier said than done, mind.

That model is also much more difficult post Brexit as signing relatively unknown players from Europe is now more difficult. Brentford might have found themselves on a bit of trouble longer term had they not gone up this season.

Edited June 8, 2021 by JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta

[Curtains]

4 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I think the biggest problem with investing so heavily in the academy is that it's so unpredictable. There's no guarantee that the next crop will be any good.

Contrast that with investing heavily in setting up a Brentford-style recruitment system; you know the talent is always going to be out there and it's just a case of making the right decision on who to sign. Obviously that's easier said than done, mind.

Of course the Academy needs to be run well alongside good recruitment.

I think the balance is right with the Academy at the moment .

We will probably make a profit on Sibley, Knight and Buchanan but I  hope we hang on to them .

Odds are one or even two will be sold. 

[TheAllestreeRam]

6 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I think the biggest problem with investing so heavily in the academy is that it's so unpredictable. There's no guarantee that the next crop will be any good.

Contrast that with investing heavily in setting up a Brentford-style recruitment system; you know the talent is always going to be out there and it's just a case of making the right decision on who to sign. Obviously that's easier said than done, mind.

Both approaches have their pitfalls, but Brentfords approach when done right, clearly leads to success. 

Brentford also scrapped their academy a couple of years ago for further contrast. 

[Rample]

The plan is already changing - last season we added the likes of Duncan, Watson etc at a slightly older age group. Moving these into the squad still count, but require less investment both in time and money.

I think it's more a case of developing young talent rather than buying the finished articles for silly prices.

[Curtains]

3 minutes ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

Both approaches have their pitfalls, but Brentfords approach when done right, clearly leads to success. 

Brentford also scrapped their academy a couple of years ago for further contrast. 

Brentford will get relegated next season .

Parachute payments will help them though 

[Tyler Durden]

7 minutes ago, Curtains said:

I think at times Mel has been naive in his thinking about the Academy and the first team but in retrospect it’s all down to the cost of running a competitive Championship team without promotion to the Premier League. 
 

I really think me included we have been harsh on Mel. 
 

Not getting promotion has ultimately cost DCFC but all is not lost .

 

Yes naive totally agree.

Harsh not so sure.....as soon as you start making bold statements like that then you quite rightly have to stick your head about the parapet.....which goes back to the first comment.