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The academy model


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2 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

They haven't though... they've offered next to nothing this season in midfield or going forward. Buchanan had a good run in the first half of the season but severely tailed off to the point he was replaced by an ageing replacement.  I'm genuinely unsure how they've proven to be 'good championship players' when they've been in and out of a team that earned the 3rd fewest points in this division. Hendrik had more game time at a younger age than these lads and was having a bigger effect on games too. 

Personally, I wouldn't be particularly bothered if we sold them off if a half decent offer came in for Knight, Bird or Buchanan. 

They are young players who have dips in form but they’ve shown quality and top level quality - they now have to kick on. I look at Bogle and Buchanan has more potential. I look at Knight and I see someone who can score double figures in a season (nearly did under Cocu) has an engine like Craig Bryson and can ping 50 yard passes. Bird won players player of the season in a team that finished 10th. These players have done this already in their careers.

But bring it all back to last season when the senior pros couldn’t even do the job and make the statement these won’t make it. That’s a pretty narrow minded view.

 I’m not saying they will be world beaters (though Buchanan could go all the way IMO) but top 6 championship/lower premier league players they could well be.
 

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2 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

He was the youngest player ever to be capped by wales at the time. It's hardly the case Knight is keeping out world beaters to get into Ireland's squad. atm either You're entitled to your view, I don't see any evidence of these lads being any better than those such as Addison or Nyatanga and if someone offered me 4-5 million for them I'd take it now. 

Based on your assessment of their abilities we’d be lucky to get £500k 

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1 minute ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

They are young players who have dips in form but they’ve shown quality and top level quality - they now have to kick on. I look at Bogle and Buchanan has more potential. I look at Knight and I see someone who can score double figures in a season (nearly did under Cocu) has an engine like Craig Bryson and can ping 50 yard passes. Bird won players player of the season in a team that finished 10th. These players have done this already in their careers.

But bring it all back to last season when the senior pros couldn’t even do the job and make the statement these won’t make it. That’s a pretty narrow minded view.

 I’m not saying they will be world beaters (though Buchanan could go all the way IMO) but top 6 championship/lower premier league players they could well be.
 

Bogle was better at 18 and played more games than Buchanan has at 20 so how has he got more potential? Buchanan isn't as bad as Max lowe (a genuinely shocking player) but he's nowhere near as good as Bogle was. There are dips and dips- a dip in form to last for 6-7 games is to be expected yes and so are inconsistencies but an entire season isn't a dip it's a serious issue that shouldn't be ignored. 

The midfield was consistently overrun, out thought and out manoeuvred last season that these supposed wonder kids were in and out of to the point that a bang average graham shinnie won player of the year. Knight and Bird didn't offer much in the way of anything and like I've said they're not 17 anymore but 20. Knight didn't almost score double figures (he scored 6) under cocu either. I hope I'm wrong but we're putting so much stock in players who offered little to nothing and living on some good form from not last season but the season before seems like a mistake to me and certainly no guarantee they'll come good.  

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8 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Based on your assessment of their abilities we’d be lucky to get £500k 

I don't think we'll sell them anyway tbh. Maybe we'll get an offer for Knight or Buchanan that's too good to refuse but I doubt we'll sell Bird or Sibley. 

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44 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

sorry got Doyle confused with Nyatanga. 

The point was these players having experience in the first team from a young age and more than a couple were billed for big things before for whatever reason they never made it to the heights people expected. Hanson, Holmes, Addison, and Bennett all came through early and all had experience playing in the first team from a young age- as I've said before I'm not saying the ones coming through now will necessarily go down the same route but I also don't think they've shown the massive promise that Hendrik, Hughes and Huddlestone all showed at younger ages. 

Listen to an interview with Nyatanga and you'll see why he didn't push on. One of those who played just because he was good at it so didn't push himself to do better. He didn't even have the intention on becoming a pro footballer

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  • 3 months later...
On 08/06/2021 at 19:17, Leeds Ram said:

Nathan Doyle at the time was regarded as a very hot property and was capped at an exceptionally young age for wales, so were lee holmes and Miles Addison. Ball scored goals at the younger levels (and dominated a strong west ham team) as did paris simmons. Izle Mcleoud ran rings around Majorca in a friendly and was named motm when one Samuel Eto'o was on the pitch. All of these didn't live up to their potential for whatever reason. Both Pablo Mills and Hanson were in and around the first team when they were young as was Mason Bennett. 

Claiming a lot of these players will be able to compete week in week out at a good upper championship level is nothing more than modern day soothsaying at this point. In addition,  I'm not convinced they're substantially better than the youth products who broke through to the first team before were either. A lot of these lads are not babies; Knight is 20, watson has just turned 20, Bird is 20, Buchanan is 20, Mcdonald is 19 and Sibley is 19. They've generally had terrible seasons after a couple had a good backend to the last one, it's hardly proof of any future stardom. I believe will hughes established himself in our first team when he was 18 and Hendrik when he was 18/19 too I think. They were dominating the midfield by the time they were 20/21 so the developmental difference between the comparison is substantial. If we think back further, look at Tom Huddlestone and how good he was at 17... 

I'm not saying none will make the grade, merely that the belief that this crop is substantially more gifted in comparison to the others is potentially short sighted and can't be relied upon to guarantee results. The lesson from this season should be a sprinkling of the best talent from the youth level is a good thing but that overusing inexperienced, decently talented (but not fantastic) youngsters is a bad idea. 

Hughes and Huddlestone are players who can/could operate comfortable in the PL - the model doesn’t fail if that’s not achieved regularly 

it’s hard to dispute that Knight, Bird and Buchanan are now solid championship starters - the latter two have come on this season and Knight was run into the ground last. Watson and Ebosele are strong prospects. I’m not yet a Sibley or Stretton groupie but would like to be persuaded 

So far as I’m concerned his academy ‘model’ was certainly not a mistake by MM. A related problem though was interfering unduly with on-the-field matters. Possibly this contributed to the rift  with Rooney 

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Our best years were when we got to play off final in 2014 and then in 2019. Both times academy players were part of the success model .. Hughes and Hendrick in 2014 and bogle and Bennett in 2019 , plus tapping into Chelsea academy with mount and tomori. Loan players also played a part in 2014 with Thorne , Bamford and Wisdom. 
 

in 2014 we also had some shrewd signings by clough … Martin, fozzy, Bryson, and yes even keogh although that season ended badly for him. 
 

It nearly worked. Far too much slagging off of Derby’s efforts in the media over the last two weeks . 

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On 16/06/2021 at 18:59, Leeds Ram said:

He was the youngest player ever to be capped by wales at the time. It's hardly the case Knight is keeping out world beaters to get into Ireland's squad. atm either You're entitled to your view, I don't see any evidence of these lads being any better than those such as Addison or Nyatanga as of yet. I hope I'm wrong and they turn out to be very good players but I'm not seeing the qualities that people are hyping about. 

You are wrong. Knight, Bird, Buchanan and Sibley will play at Championship level or above for many years to come… if they drop a division it will only be because they stay with us after we are relegated .

 

 

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