The academy model

[DarkFruitsRam7]

1 hour ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

That model is also much more difficult post Brexit as signing relatively unknown players from Europe is now more difficult. Brentford might have found themselves on a bit of trouble longer term had they not gone up this season.

 

1 hour ago, Sparkle said:

Especially when they could pick up any European that they thought would do well for peanuts - if Brentford hadn’t gone up they would have started to struggle with their model with only the UK players to pick up 

While your points are valid, I only really used Brentford as an example of a club who have put a heavy focus on smart recruitment. I could have used other clubs as examples.

The point being, a focus on recruitment gambles on your ability to pick the right people from the talent pool. A focus on the academy gambles on whether the talent pool is even there at all.

Edited June 8, 2021 by DarkFruitsRam7

[Angry Ram]

1 hour ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

Good job we wasted that time and money as offloading youth players has kept the cashflow going over the last few months by the looks of it.

We really are in the poo if the academy has to pay all the bills.

[RadioactiveWaste]

It's taken a long time to make the youth set up genuinely a good one.

It's the one thing that has been done right during the Mel years.

The problem is expectation. We ended up with far to many youth players in the first team through lack of options last season.

You have to think in terms of generating useful players who will be able to have careers in the game consitently rather than expecting high value talents who get big transfers/bring things to the team that you couldn't buy. 

[Comrade 86]

More wise heads after the event I see. Also slightly revisionist. Mel never bragged about having half the team being academy products. He discussed a plan for sustainability that involved up to half the matchday squad having come through the youth system. 

To be honest, I'm not really sure how the academy set up can be viewed as any kind of failure or let down.  The investment is already producing a steady stream of players quite capable of playing at Championship level or higher and a fair few already playing for their respective countries. If we really must continue slinging poo at our owner, I'd cite our recruitment of senior players as a key factor. The academy wouldn't even get a mention.

Frankly, I've no problem with us selling Bogle and Lowe when we have McDonald, Festy, Stretton, Brown, Bird, Watson, SIbley and Buchanan coming through. Our problem is poor recruitment of senior pros not the academy project.

[Anag Ram]

4 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

More wise heads after the event I see. Also slightly revisionist. Mel never bragged about having half the team being academy products. He discussed a plan for sustainability that involved up to half the matchday squad having come through the youth system. 

To be honest, I'm not really sure how the academy set up can be viewed as any kind of failure or let down.  The investment is already producing a steady stream of players quite capable of playing at Championship level or higher and a fair few already playing for their respective countries. If we really must continue slinging poo at our owner, I'd cite our recruitment of senior players as a key factor. The academy wouldn't even get a mention.

Frankly, I've no problem with us selling Bogle and Lowe when we have McDonald, Festy, Stretton, Brown, Bird, Watson, SIbley and Buchanan coming through. Our problem is poor recruitment of senior pros not the academy project.

Indeed. Also extending the contracts of bit part players well beyond their usefulness. 

[Rammy03]

Norwich have been able to do it quite successfully over the last few years but they recruit really well on the senior front and so are able to create a genuinely good team. 

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

The academy is the best thing about the club right now.

Let's not forget that these players need better "signed players" to help them improve. It's very unfair to look downwards on the academy when the problem lies within the first team. 

I'd guarantee that given the right set-up (coaching), with the right players around them, a lot of the academy players would look different to what they do when they are being played out of neccessity.

Take Sibley as an example, if he'd had a different coach with a lot less pressure on him because of the first team situation and better players around him, he would IMO be a different player to what we see now. He could easily be a £5m + player and we wouldnt need to have this discussion.

[Van der MoodHoover]

2 hours ago, Rample said:

The plan is already changing - last season we added the likes of Duncan, Watson etc at a slightly older age group. Moving these into the squad still count, but require less investment both in time and money.

I think it's more a case of developing young talent rather than buying the finished articles for silly prices.

that describes a number of our signings over the past few years quite well i think ?

[TheAllestreeRam]

47 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

More wise heads after the event I see. Also slightly revisionist. Mel never bragged about having half the team being academy products. He discussed a plan for sustainability that involved up to half the matchday squad having come through the youth system. 

To be honest, I'm not really sure how the academy set up can be viewed as any kind of failure or let down.  The investment is already producing a steady stream of players quite capable of playing at Championship level or higher and a fair few already playing for their respective countries. If we really must continue slinging poo at our owner, I'd cite our recruitment of senior players as a key factor. The academy wouldn't even get a mention.

Frankly, I've no problem with us selling Bogle and Lowe when we have McDonald, Festy, Stretton, Brown, Bird, Watson, SIbley and Buchanan coming through. Our problem is poor recruitment of senior pros not the academy project.

Its not that the academy is a failure by any means, I am more asking the question of whether the model of producing academy players for the first team in the quantity that we are currently, is a sustainable one where we remain competitive. 

I would have argued at the time that we are asking to much of the academy to produce a steady stream of championship quality players year after year to compete for promotion, while also producing players who can be sold for revenue. As i said in the original post, there are very few if any successful clubs that operate in this way (there must be a reason no one else does this). 

Had we kept hold of many of our best prospects then this might have been a different story but we seem to want to 'have our cake and eat it' so to speak. 

This has hardly been a Mel bashing thread, relying on the academy means we can sell players who had no transfer fee. It is a logical and admirable plan but one that hasnt particularly worked thus far. 

The academy itself has been a success, what this success means for the club is another question. 

Edited June 8, 2021 by TheAllestreeRam

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

1 hour ago, Angry Ram said:

We really are in the poo if the academy has to pay all the bills.

I completely agree. 

[GenBr]

3 hours ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

Both approaches have their pitfalls, but Brentfords approach when done right, clearly leads to success. 

Brentford also scrapped their academy a couple of years ago for further contrast. 

The academy approach when done right also leads to success. See the likes of southampton a few years ago.

[BramcoteRam84]

Good debate started by the OP here. I don’t think it’s black and white as to whether we should place such emphasis on the academy or not. Ultimately it is about being sustainable and the only way to do that is through good value recruitment, players of the right age or on the right terms with a hunger and desire to prove themselves or an unrealised talent or through bringing through academy players. Spending big transfers and wages on senior pros unlikely to get good resale value is precisely why we’re struggling to comply with FFP. We needed to get promoted and we didn’t.

The days of splashing the cash are gone so the only way we can progress is recruitment of the right characters at bargain priced supplemented by academy players. This means shopping in Scotland, League 1 and 2 given Brexit might make the European market more of a challenge. It will take time as it did under Nigel Clough and there will be signings that work and signings that don’t but hopefully we won’t be mortgaged to the hilt with them if we can buy at the right value.

The positive is the academy is in a very good place. Forget Delap, Gordon and the lads that went to United, they may all turn out to be superstars but we don’t need that. Hughes and Hendrick were key to our 13/14 and 14/15 team, they are not superstar quality (although I still think Will could play in a top 6 team and get some England caps - think there’s a bargain there for one of the clubs fighting for Europe). I think Knight will easily match and possibly surpass Hendrick and I think that time will come in the next couple of years. Buchanan  probably has the most potential of the current crop, remember this was his first season really in professional football, can attack and defend, I think he will be better than Bogle for example. Anyone thinking Bird won’t make it look at his performances in second half of last season under Cocu when he was being talked about as the next young star of the championship and being linked with Chelsea. Sibley has shown what he can do in the right system, then the next crop of unprovens, McDonald and Ebsoele both look talents, Stretton scores goals and has pace to burn, Watson also looks a big talent and they are just tut ones we’ve seen in the first team. We’ve never had the sheer volume of academy talent as we have right now. From what I’ve seen I think all the players I mention could become very good championship lower prem players as a minimum. This isn’t Nathan Doyle, Jamie Hanson, Pablo Mills Callum Ball level ability, these lads are far better. 
 

There are no guarantees as mentality and luck with injuries comes into it but these lads have ability and with the right senior pros alongside them, even if we lose a couple of them to the premier league we could at some point have a very good side to compete again. Might take a couple of seasons of bottom half scrapping relegation though which means we need some bargain freebies or ugly dogged seniors pros on short term deals to help get us through while these talents still develop.

[Comrade 86]

21 minutes ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

Its not that the academy is a failure by any means, I am more asking the question of whether the model of producing academy players for the first team in the quantity that we are currently, is a sustainable one where we remain competitive. 

My reply wasn't really directed at you so much but my view is that it's a process and it takes time buddy. I may be the eternal optimist but I think this is the season where we will start to see really significant benefits. It may sound counter-intuitive, but the hard season some of the lads just endured will serve them well in the future.

28 minutes ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

As i said in the original post, there are very few if any successful clubs that operate in this way (there must be a reason no one else does this). 

I don't think this speaks to the systems being flawed so much as the vast majority of clubs plumping for the right here, right now model, for better or worse. We've tried that too and look where it got us. Long term sustainability is the aim here in the fashion achieved by Southampton. To me the risk profile is significantly lower but that's just my opinion.

31 minutes ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

Had we kept hold of many of our best prospects then this might have been a different story but we seem to want to 'have our cake and eat it' so to speak. 

Our best prospects walked buddy. You can't keep players who are not on pro contracts. The likes of Hughes and Hendrick were manager brainfarts but Mel can't win here as if he intercedes and insists we keep them, he gets accused of meddling. If he gives his managers autonomy, he gets blamed for that too.

35 minutes ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

This has hardly been a Mel bashing thread

Where have I said it is? I'm defending the academy set up or it this thread only for those who hold a opinion that it's not sustainable? I thought the point of the OP was to invite commentary ?‍♂️

[TheAllestreeRam]

10 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

My reply wasn't really directed at you so much but my view is that it's a process and it takes time buddy. I may be the eternal optimist but I think this is the season where we will start to see really significant benefits. It may sound counter-intuitive, but the hard season some of the lads just endured will serve them well in the future.

I agree with you that it does take time, I was reviewing it now that we had come to the point that Mel has set his target which seemed like a decent point to take stock. 

12 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

I don't think this speaks to the systems being flawed so much as the vast majority of clubs plumping for the right here, right now model, for better or worse. We've tried that too and look where it got us. Long term sustainability is the aim here in the fashion achieved by Southampton. To me the risk profile is significantly lower but that's just my opinion.

Thats true that alot of clubs are running thing massively in the short term and Southampton is a good example to prove me wrong. I just question whether we too can be producing Luke Shaws, Ward-prowses and gareth bales as consistently as they have. 

14 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Our best prospects walked buddy. You can't keep players who are not on pro contracts. The likes of Hughes and Hendrick were manager brainfarts but Mel can't win here as if he intercedes and insists we keep them, he gets accused of meddling. If he gives his managers autonomy, he gets blamed for that too.

And this is my point, if we were pinning alot of hope on Delap and Gordon and the rest serving us for years to come or bringing us alot of money, then we have no way of making them stay or even getting the money back that we put into them. I accept that this is an issue all around football though and not exclusive to this model. 

16 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Where have I said it is? I'm defending the academy set up or it this thread only for those who hold a opinion that it's not sustainable? I thought the point of the OP was to invite commentary ?‍♂️

It was the 'slinging poo at the owners' part, but clearly ive got the wrong end of the stick from what you said? And of course you are allowed to voice your opinion... as I am in response ? 

[Comrade 86]

24 minutes ago, TheAllestreeRam said:

It was the 'slinging poo at the owners' part, but clearly ive got the wrong end of the stick from what you said? And of course you are allowed to voice your opinion... as I am in response ? 

I've kind of stated my piece now so will avoid a back and forth other than to state again that my post was a general one and not aimed at you. Had that not been the case, I'd have quoted you.

[ThePrisoner]

4 hours ago, Curtains said:

Brentford will get relegated next season .

Parachute payments will help them though 

Can I have next May’s lottery numbers too?

[Sparkle]

3 hours ago, SFox1993 said:

Do we have a sell on clause ?

Yes I believe we do 

[Curtains]

47 minutes ago, ThePrisoner said:

Can I have next May’s lottery numbers too?

Edited June 8, 2021 by Curtains

[Curtains]

43 minutes ago, ThePrisoner said:

Can I have next May’s lottery numbers too?

Never mind 

[Leeds Ram]

1 hour ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Good debate started by the OP here. I don’t think it’s black and white as to whether we should place such emphasis on the academy or not. Ultimately it is about being sustainable and the only way to do that is through good value recruitment, players of the right age or on the right terms with a hunger and desire to prove themselves or an unrealised talent or through bringing through academy players. Spending big transfers and wages on senior pros unlikely to get good resale value is precisely why we’re struggling to comply with FFP. We needed to get promoted and we didn’t.

The days of splashing the cash are gone so the only way we can progress is recruitment of the right characters at bargain priced supplemented by academy players. This means shopping in Scotland, League 1 and 2 given Brexit might make the European market more of a challenge. It will take time as it did under Nigel Clough and there will be signings that work and signings that don’t but hopefully we won’t be mortgaged to the hilt with them if we can buy at the right value.

The positive is the academy is in a very good place. Forget Delap, Gordon and the lads that went to United, they may all turn out to be superstars but we don’t need that. Hughes and Hendrick were key to our 13/14 and 14/15 team, they are not superstar quality (although I still think Will could play in a top 6 team and get some England caps - think there’s a bargain there for one of the clubs fighting for Europe). I think Knight will easily match and possibly surpass Hendrick and I think that time will come in the next couple of years. Buchanan  probably has the most potential of the current crop, remember this was his first season really in professional football, can attack and defend, I think he will be better than Bogle for example. Anyone thinking Bird won’t make it look at his performances in second half of last season under Cocu when he was being talked about as the next young star of the championship and being linked with Chelsea. Sibley has shown what he can do in the right system, then the next crop of unprovens, McDonald and Ebsoele both look talents, Stretton scores goals and has pace to burn, Watson also looks a big talent and they are just tut ones we’ve seen in the first team. We’ve never had the sheer volume of academy talent as we have right now. From what I’ve seen I think all the players I mention could become very good championship lower prem players as a minimum. This isn’t Nathan Doyle, Jamie Hanson, Pablo Mills Callum Ball level ability, these lads are far better. 
 

There are no guarantees as mentality and luck with injuries comes into it but these lads have ability and with the right senior pros alongside them, even if we lose a couple of them to the premier league we could at some point have a very good side to compete again. Might take a couple of seasons of bottom half scrapping relegation though which means we need some bargain freebies or ugly dogged seniors pros on short term deals to help get us through while these talents still develop.

Nathan Doyle at the time was regarded as a very hot property and was capped at an exceptionally young age for wales, so were lee holmes and Miles Addison. Ball scored goals at the younger levels (and dominated a strong west ham team) as did paris simmons. Izle Mcleoud ran rings around Majorca in a friendly and was named motm when one Samuel Eto'o was on the pitch. All of these didn't live up to their potential for whatever reason. Both Pablo Mills and Hanson were in and around the first team when they were young as was Mason Bennett. 

Claiming a lot of these players will be able to compete week in week out at a good upper championship level is nothing more than modern day soothsaying at this point. In addition,  I'm not convinced they're substantially better than the youth products who broke through to the first team before were either. A lot of these lads are not babies; Knight is 20, watson has just turned 20, Bird is 20, Buchanan is 20, Mcdonald is 19 and Sibley is 19. They've generally had terrible seasons after a couple had a good backend to the last one, it's hardly proof of any future stardom. I believe will hughes established himself in our first team when he was 18 and Hendrik when he was 18/19 too I think. They were dominating the midfield by the time they were 20/21 so the developmental difference between the comparison is substantial. If we think back further, look at Tom Huddlestone and how good he was at 17... 

I'm not saying none will make the grade, merely that the belief that this crop is substantially more gifted in comparison to the others is potentially short sighted and can't be relied upon to guarantee results. The lesson from this season should be a sprinkling of the best talent from the youth level is a good thing but that overusing inexperienced, decently talented (but not fantastic) youngsters is a bad idea.