Tribunal Update

[Ramleicester]

1 hour ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

There was a post from @Ramleicester not long after the charges were announced, in the relevant thread at the time

Thinking about the potential of that, and I don't remember whether I replied to that post at the time so I apologise if I'm going over old ground here - the rules say the EFL Executive has the power to restate the value for a Related Party Transaction to Fair Market Value, but only after allowing the club to make their case for that value.

But - if the EFL Executive believed that the transaction was going to be with a 3rd party, ie. not Mel, why would they ask for an adjustment?

Even if it was only for FFP/P&S and not the sale price, any 3rd party transaction is already "between knowledgeable, willing parties in an arm’s length transaction" which means the club would be able to use the full profits from the sale and not have an adjustment made. The rules make no mention of the Executive being able to do that, so if they did it would be outside of the allowed power.

So even if there was confusion on the EFL's part, the club would be entitled to think that there was no confusion, as the EFL Executive asked for the adjustment which they are only allowed to do for an RPT.

Although, as they had already asked for an adjustment it then seems wrong for them to be allowed to further restate to the EFL's valuation in November 2019, but that's another story...

Hi. Not logged in for ages but have been looking at what is going on. That rather old post of mine is, I understand, still relevant to the case.

If you have a look at Derby County Ltd on the Companies house website you will see a rather odd filing that is a notice that is filed when a person ' no longer has significant control'. One was filed for Mel which is around the time of the transaction. (It could be interpreted as a rather clumsy attempt to seperate Mel from the stadium purchase). It could be that is the EFL's issue in that the transaction was not as 'arms length' as DCFC claimed when getting sign off for the valuation etc. 

[Day]

1 minute ago, oldtimeram said:

I truly hope we are found not guilty.

However, I do believe we've been sailing very close to the wind and it should serve as a warning to us to be more careful in future

Of course we have, hence the stadium sale. I could list a number of clubs that have sailed close to the wind to spend more money as they have ambitious owners.

Would you prefer a more “stable” GSE ownership with a 10 year plan with Conor Sammon up top whilst dreaming of more £1m signings?

Got to be honest, I’ve enjoyed what I’ve seen over the last 5 years whilst sailing close to the wind. It’s been nice to actually believe we could actually make it back into the Premier League.

 

[RamNut]

8 minutes ago, Ramleicester said:

Hi. Not logged in for ages but have been looking at what is going on. That rather old post of mine is, I understand, still relevant to the case.

If you have a look at Derby County Ltd on the Companies house website you will see a rather odd filing that is a notice that is filed when a person ' no longer has significant control'. One was filed for Mel which is around the time of the transaction. (It could be interpreted as a rather clumsy attempt to seperate Mel from the stadium purchase). It could be that is the EFL's issue in that the transaction was not as 'arms length' as DCFC claimed when getting sign off for the valuation etc. 

Which is what I was saying as well.
But it is now claimed that a change of EFL rules mean that the status of an arms length transaction is no longer relevant.

I can’t be bothered to research it anymore, or to enter into pointless debate with the rose tinted glasses brigade.

We might as well just wait to find out the decision.  

[Reggie Greenwood]

7 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Which is what I was saying as well.
But it is now claimed that a change of EFL rules mean that the status of an arms length transaction is no longer relevant.

I can’t be bothered to research it anymore, or to enter into pointless debate with the rose tinted glasses brigade.

We might as well just wait to find out the decision.  

I don't think there is any "rose tinted " glasses brigade just people who have come up with different interpretations and opinions of the "doom mongers brigade " ?  

[Sith Happens]

1 hour ago, David said:

Of course we have, hence the stadium sale. I could list a number of clubs that have sailed close to the wind to spend more money as they have ambitious owners.

Would you prefer a more “stable” GSE ownership with a 10 year plan with Conor Sammon up top whilst dreaming of more £1m signings?

Got to be honest, I’ve enjoyed what I’ve seen over the last 5 years whilst sailing close to the wind. It’s been nice to actually believe we could actually make it back into the Premier League.

 

while I agree with much of what you say, it would be easy to argue GSE got us closer to promotion than Mel has, in much less than 10 years. 

[Archied]

4 hours ago, FindernRam said:

off topic, but it feels like every season since we came down is a transition season

Here’s the thing , for almost every club at this level every season IS a transitional season simply because of the financial model that you have to adhere to , take a club like Brentford ,the players they bring in and improve are nicked by more money bags clubs every season they don’t go up and they have to find more players to start again , they are having a good run just now where they’re buys have worked well but make no mistake that can turn and you get a run of players just as easily for various reasons that don’t cut it ,,,football clubs at this level are in a constant transition 

[Day]

33 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

while I agree with much of what you say, it would be easy to argue GSE got us closer to promotion than Mel has, in much less than 10 years. 

Did they?

Playing QPR at Wembley is no closer than playing Villa at Wembley.

1 season we finished top 6 with GSE having one foot out the door.

Since then we’ve finished 3 seasons in the top 6 and not been out the top 10 once. 

[Sith Happens]

41 minutes ago, David said:

Did they?

Playing QPR at Wembley is no closer than playing Villa at Wembley.

1 season we finished top 6 with GSE having one foot out the door.

Since then we’ve finished 3 seasons in the top 6 and not been out the top 10 once. 

I would argue yes, despite losing that final we were the better team and should have won , last year we were never really in the game, and despite falling apart due to horrendous injuries the following season it was the most we looked like going up automatically than we have done since,  of course we didn't and it's hard to prove but had we not had those injuries it's quite likely we would have got promoted. 

[Day]

Just now, Paul71 said:

I would argue yes, despite losing that final we were the better team and should have won , last year we were never really in the game, and despite falling apart due to horrendous injuries the following season it was the most we looked like going up automatically than we have done since,  of course we didn't and it's hard to prove but had we not had those injuries it's quite likely we would have got promoted. 

I get what you’re saying but we didn’t even put the ball in the net against 10 men, it’s ok being the dominant team in the game but if you don’t score, you won’t win. 

We did that v Villa despite being on the back foot for most of the game, even had chances to level it late on.

Not trying to argue we were closer last year, for me they are the same as we reached the final and lost, that’s what will go down in the history books.

13/14 team over 18/19 absolutely, but ultimately both failed at the same hurdle.

[Sith Happens]

Just now, David said:

I get what you’re saying but we didn’t even put the ball in the net against 10 men, it’s ok being the dominant team in the game but if you don’t score, you won’t win. 

We did that v Villa despite being on the back foot for most of the game, even had chances to level it late on.

Not trying to argue we were closer last year, for me they are the same as we reached the final and lost, that’s what will go down in the history books.

13/14 team over 18/19 absolutely, but ultimately both failed at the same hurdle.

I agree,  your point initially was that we have challenged for promotion under Mel which was better than a 10 year plan under GSE, my point was simply we challenged under GSE sooner than 10 years.

If I was being pedantic I could say at the end of their 6 or 7 years whatever it was we were in a stronger position than we are after 5 years of Mel being in charge. 

Hopefully the next year or two tips the scales in Mels favour. 

 

 

[Day]

2 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

I agree,  your point initially was that we have challenged for promotion under Mel which was better than a 10 year plan under GSE, my point was simply we challenged under GSE sooner than 10 years.

If I was being pedantic I could say at the end of their 6 or 7 years whatever it was we were in a stronger position than we are after 5 years of Mel being in charge. 

Hopefully the next year or two tips the scales in Mels favour. 

With the emergence of Bogle, Lowe, Bird, Sibley and Knight you could argue that is debatable, we could be easily looking at £50m+ in assets right there if things go to plan.

I don’t have any fond memories of the GSE tenure other than when Rush upset the masses by sacking Clough and McClaren walked through the door.

(side note, Chris Martin departure...you never know what can happen next)

We had Hughes and Hendrick which was great to see develop but 95% of the time we were witnessing some pretty dire football that left me questioning if we would ever see the Premier League again in my lifetime.

I get the “reckless” spending isn’t everyones cup of tea, but it’s brought so many great memories and that’s why I find it hard to sit here now and criticise it and the reason I will defend it so much. 

Isn’t that what football is about? Being entertained and daring to dream?

IF and it’s a big IF the independent tribunal find us guilty, dock us points next season I’ll be a man and take it on the chin, I would feel like a hypocrite if I suddenly turned on Mel and the club knowing at no point of the spending was I saying stop buying those expensive players, I’m not interested in the Premier League.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

3 hours ago, oldtimeram said:

That's a ridiculous comment to make.  Of course I do not want to see us get a points deduction, why would I, but if we do, someone is to blame and the buck stops at the owner surely?  

He may have pumped millions into the club but if we get a points deduction because of, allegedly, some form of creative accounting, he's got to take some blame.

 Just because he supposedly reads this forum and has met several of the forum members people should not view him through rose tinted glasses. 

I have no doubt his heart is with the club and he does what he thinks is best for the club, but it may not always be the right and proper thing to do.

I hope we do not get a points deduction, but I just hope in future, the club do not try to be too clever in trying to circumnavigate the financial fair play rules, if that proves to be the case.

If you think my heart is not with the club, as you have intimated, ban me if you feel that's the right thing to do too?

 

Fight fight fight........ Oh sorry we've done that one. 

[FindernRam]

11 minutes ago, David said:

Isn’t that what football is about? Being entertained and daring to dream?

Absolutely, but at Derby entertainment has been sorely lacking for too many games over too many seasons under too many managers.

But for many of us the dream goes on as the years go by and we get older! 

I still cherish memories of the charity shield at the old Wembley! Will we ever play the shield again!

 

[Day]

3 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

Absolutely, but at Derby entertainment has been sorely lacking for too many games over too many seasons under too many managers.

But for many of us the dream goes on as the years go by and we get older! 

I still cherish memories of the charity shield at the old Wembley! Will we ever play the shield again!

 

Can’t compete with you oldies for memories, unless some bloke in the Middle East decides to turn us into the next Man City it’s unlikely I’ll ever see Derby County be crowned champions of England. 

Watching one of the best left backs England have had, England and Man Utd’s all time top goalscorer pull on a Derby shirt will have to do.....I say will have to do but some clubs will have fans that will never experience anything like we have. 

Count myself lucky I was born in Derby and not Grimsby.

[angieram]

9 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

Absolutely, but at Derby entertainment has been sorely lacking for too many games over too many seasons under too many managers.

But for many of us the dream goes on as the years go by and we get older! 

I still cherish memories of the charity shield at the old Wembley! Will we ever play the shield again!

 

Then you should know that the football over the past few years has in fact been a lot more entertaining than many many more of the seasons inbetween.

We've been in or around the hunt for a play off place nearly every season recently,  which is some achievement without parachute payments.

It's not so long ago we were looking for 50 points as our benchmark for the season.

I'm with @David on this one.

[Stockport Ram]

14 minutes ago, David said:

Can’t compete with you oldies for memories, unless some bloke in the Middle East decides to turn us into the next Man City it’s unlikely I’ll ever see Derby County be crowned champions of England. 

Watching one of the best left backs England have had, England and Man Utd’s all time top goalscorer pull on a Derby shirt will have to do.....I say will have to do but some clubs will have fans that will never experience anything like we have. 

Count myself lucky I was born in Derby and not Grimsby.

I was going to comment on your misplaced opinion of Jay McKeveley, but then I realised that, after his three England U20 appearances, he found his true level and was picked for Scotland.

[Sith Happens]

4 minutes ago, Mark Lucas said:

I was going to comment on your misplaced opinion of Jay McKeveley, but then I realised that, after his three England U20 appearances, he found his true level and was picked for Scotland.

Are you sure hes not on about Scott Malone who appears to have represented England at International level too.

[Stockport Ram]

D'you know, Paul, I'd never thought of that.

There must be two genetically identical chickens out there in some lush Nottinghamshire field both proudly possessing two heads....

[Sith Happens]

51 minutes ago, David said:

With the emergence of Bogle, Lowe, Bird, Sibley and Knight you could argue that is debatable, we could be easily looking at £50m+ in assets right there if things go to plan.

I don’t have any fond memories of the GSE tenure other than when Rush upset the masses by sacking Clough and McClaren walked through the door.

(side note, Chris Martin departure...you never know what can happen next)

We had Hughes and Hendrick which was great to see develop but 95% of the time we were witnessing some pretty dire football that left me questioning if we would ever see the Premier League again in my lifetime.

I get the “reckless” spending isn’t everyones cup of tea, but it’s brought so many great memories and that’s why I find it hard to sit here now and criticise it and the reason I will defend it so much. 

Isn’t that what football is about? Being entertained and daring to dream?

IF and it’s a big IF the independent tribunal find us guilty, dock us points next season I’ll be a man and take it on the chin, I would feel like a hypocrite if I suddenly turned on Mel and the club knowing at no point of the spending was I saying stop buying those expensive players, I’m not interested in the Premier League.

Dont get me wrong im not anti Mel, just not pro Mel to the level I would dismiss the achievments, albeit slow of GSE...With regards to being entertained 22/03/2014 was most definately under the GSE regime.....

 

[Day]

4 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

Dont get me wrong im not anti Mel, just not pro Mel to the level I would dismiss the achievments, albeit slow of GSE...With regards to being entertained 22/03/2014 was most definately under the GSE regime.....

Slow it was, I had hair on my head when they bought the club and it was gone by time they packed up and left! ?

Out of the 6 years, it all came down to the last 8 months. 

We have the man that went on to help us spend a lot of money to thank for that as well. 

The players were there but GSE were happy to be going along with the romantic Clough back home story. 

If only they had realised sooner than we need to a manager that would take the handbrake off, who knows where we would be today