Coronavirus

[Uptherams]

I've only got three things to say about the new plans.

1. He's trying to get Brexit out of the media and stop people discussing the next few difficult weeks

2. They put all of their eggs in one or two baskets regarding a 'vaccination'. There is an small US company who has been working on T-Cell vaccinations for Cancer, etc for a few years and it's extremely promising and they pivoted towards developing a strain for Covid-19. Increases T-Cell count by 3-5 more than any other vaccination based on trials. But our government stupidly went with big names just because of their names. Oxford, Astrazeneca. Absolutely stupid. Now with this setback they are panicking. 

3. They don't have the balls to tell people organising mass raves or attending them, along with block parties, they are the problem and they will get fined and dealt with. What they are doing is illegal regardless of Covid-19. Instead we all have to get told off. No more than 6 people. 10pm curfews. 

The Government can politely duck off. 

 

[ariotofmyown]

1 minute ago, Uptherams said:

I've only got three things to say about the new plans.

1. He's trying to get Brexit out of the media and stop people discussing the next few difficult weeks

2. They put all of their eggs in one or two baskets regarding a 'vaccination'. There is an small US company who has been working on T-Cell vaccinations for Cancer, etc for a few years and it's extremely promising and they pivoted towards developing a strain for Covid-19. Increases T-Cell count by 3-5 more than any other vaccination based on trials. But our government stupidly went with big names just because of their names. Oxford, Astrazeneca. Absolutely stupid. Now with this setback they are panicking. 

3. They don't have the balls to tell people organising mass raves or attending them, along with block parties, they are the problem and they will get fined and dealt with. What they are doing is illegal regardless of Covid-19. Instead we all have to get told off. No more than 6 people. 10pm curfews. 

The Government can politely duck off. 

 

The politics break has been good for you!

[Wolfie]

4 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

2. They put all of their eggs in one or two baskets regarding a 'vaccination'. There is an small US company who has been working on T-Cell vaccinations for Cancer, etc for a few years and it's extremely promising and they pivoted towards developing a strain for Covid-19. Increases T-Cell count by 3-5 more than any other vaccination based on trials.

Except that we haven't. The UK has ordered vaccine from at least 6 different suppliers.

Do you really think that Trump would let anyone else buy vaccine from a US supplier if it proved effective? In an election year?. Are you mad?. They've already tried to get exclusive access to a German vaccine when it looked promising a few months ago. 

US Fred in his shed might well have the perfect vaccine but until it's proved effective and safe (same with anyone else's in development), then any claims are pretty worthless just now.

[ariotofmyown]

46 minutes ago, Anon said:

Don't worry. I'm sure you won't here a single negative word about the years of austerity that will be required to pay for all this from the lockdown cheerleaders. I'm sure they'll remain as stoic as ever.

Our economy seems to have suffered more than most and we've had more deaths per head than nearly all other countries. Other countries also had the virus before us, giving us the chance to learn from both their successes and failures. We lockdowned too late and were unable to put the sufficinet things in place to allow a smooth re-opening. The messaging has been poor and lots of contradictory guidelines and advice has been given.

There seems no end in sight and Brexit looks like it's gonna be a disaster. I wonder if we could put an emergency government together to try and reset and sort things out.

Maybe get Sunak, Starmer and Sturgeon all working together with some experienced cross party MPs. Bin off Johnson and Cummings and their incompetent yes men. We just seem to be sleep walking into disaster and nothing suggests things are going to get better soon.

[rammieib]

4 hours ago, SchtivePesley said:

That has to be it. There is a massive difference between people like me, you, @uttoxram75and probably most of us on here who can happily follow guidelines within reason in a sensible, precautious way and not have a problem - and then those who just genuinely DGAF and do what they like. They are the ones that will have caused the next spike if and when it comes.

But the handling of the messaging from govt is woeful (again)

 

Kind of feels like we could resurrect the Politics thread and we'd have nothing left to argue about - this lot are slowly being exposed for what they are.

 

Yep - the only time I would say I've genuinely broken the rules is:

- before you could go and spend time in others houses I was at my parents
- I've probably been into our local shop without a mask on (but never a big supermarket or shopping centre)
- My wife has had multiple friends (mums) over in groups from various households but no more than 6. (Not actually sure if this is allowed or not)

I'm back to doing things I enjoy - playing football, taking the little one swimming/footy/dancing, going for meals to restaurants, playing golf etc. I've also returned to the office - feel 100% safe here. We've introduced Covid rules and everyone respects them.

I won't find myself taking any unnecessary risks - crowded bars/clubs.

If I had to travel for work I would have no issue but would refuse to go to a country where I would have to quarantine on my return - but that's because I'd want to keep doing the things I enjoy. 

I'm keen for normality to return as quickly as possible and people know my stance on things. I want normal back and I think seeing A) Job losses and B) the lack of NHS services are the two things which hurt me the most and why I think the Governments handling has gone from good to extremely poor now.

[B4ev6is]

I am getting sick and tired of these resistants being put in place as if not making life misable as it is. None of them are brothering wearing faces in parliament are they oh no.

They are not about people having a good time so they make rest of pay for it.

Git bags.

[Uptherams]

 

14 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

Except that we haven't. The UK has ordered vaccine from at least 6 different suppliers.

Do you really think that Trump would let anyone else buy vaccine from a US supplier if it proved effective? In an election year?. Are you mad?. They've already tried to get exclusive access to a German vaccine when it looked promising a few months ago. 

US Fred in his shed might well have the perfect vaccine but until it's proved effective and safe (same with anyone else's in development), then any claims are pretty worthless just now.

That's not entirely accurate. It is important not to also conflate vaccinations with suppliers for testing. In both cases the governments stake is overwhelmingly in the previously mentioned and Novacyt. 

Another company may develop a vaccination first, especially now and what has been clear from published data, is we don't have a stake in the most effective T-Cell vaccinations. The government might have very small contracts with other companies. But we are not at the front of the queue and our initial order is nowhere near large enough to be effective. Our government, for whatever reason, bet 75% of it's stake on one horse. 

I'm not mad, as the company in question regarding the US, has a huge deal upon successful completion of all trial phases. If you have listened to Trump recently, he does not like big pharma and rightly so. Just because a company is worth $200bn, doesn't mean they are going to develop a vaccination first, or one that is better. Dodgy deals have been made and it is the same in the UK. A pharma company worth $200bn only stands to make any money from a vaccination if everyone is living in fear, everyone is forced to be vaccinated and all alternatives are completely disregarded. A small to medium cap pharma company $50m-$200m stands to make a lot of money and upset the cartel. 

As I say, these smaller cap companies have been working on T-Cell vaccinations to help with cancer treatments for years and have pivoted slightly trying to be of assistance. Big Pharma wants people to buy their overpriced drugs they own the IP to. They were even reluctant to develop a T-Cell vaccination initially because they fear a generic T-Cell vaccination is going to come into fruition and obliterate their hold on the market along with revenue and profits. This is why the likes of Astrazeneca partnered with Synairgen. They were completely out of this race.

They want to sell an overpriced drug for X,Y and Z. They are fearful of someone else getting to market first with a T-Cell vaccination. Then at some point a generic T-Cell vaccination you have once every 3 months that prevents someone from having to take 5-10+ pills per day. 

 

[Wolfie]

17 minutes ago, B4ev6is said:

I am getting sick and tired of these resistants being put in place as if not making life misable as it is. None of them are brothering wearing faces in parliament are they oh no.

They are not about people having a good time so they make rest of pay for it.

Git bags.

They're distancing, so don't have to. Very few MP's are allowed to be in there at any one time.

[B4ev6is]

8 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

They're distancing, so don't have to. Very few MP's are allowed to be in there at any one time.

Even so they should be wearing masks and still shouting so spreading virus about.

[Wolfie]

7 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

 

That's not entirely accurate. It is important not to also conflate vaccinations with suppliers for testing. In both cases the governments stake is overwhelmingly in the previously mentioned and Novacyt. 

Another company may develop a vaccination first, especially now and what has been clear from published data, is we don't have a stake in the most effective T-Cell vaccinations. The government might have very small contracts with other companies. But we are not at the front of the queue and our initial order is nowhere near large enough to be effective. Our government, for whatever reason, bet 75% of it's stake on one horse. 

I'm not mad, as the company in question regarding the US, has a huge deal upon successful completion of all trial phases. If you have listened to Trump recently, he does not like big pharma and rightly so. Just because a company is worth $200bn, doesn't mean they are going to develop a vaccination first, or one that is better. Dodgy deals have been made and it is the same in the UK. A pharma company worth $200bn only stands to make any money from a vaccination if everyone is living in fear, everyone is forced to be vaccinated and all alternatives are completely disregarded. A small to medium cap pharma company $50m-$200m stands to make a lot of money and upset the cartel. 

As I say, these smaller cap companies have been working on T-Cell vaccinations to help with cancer treatments for years and have pivoted slightly trying to be of assistance. Big Pharma wants people to buy their overpriced drugs they own the IP to. They were even reluctant to develop a T-Cell vaccination initially because they fear a generic T-Cell vaccination is going to come into fruition and obliterate their hold on the market along with revenue and profits. This is why the likes of Astrazeneca partnered with Synairgen. They were completely out of this race.

They want to sell an overpriced drug for X,Y and Z. They are fearful of someone else getting to market first with a T-Cell vaccination. Then at some point a generic T-Cell vaccination you have once every 3 months that prevents someone from having to take 5-10+ pills per day. 

 

This is from BBC on 14th August and I haven't found anything more recent that contradicts it:

The government has now purchased experimental coronavirus vaccines that have been developed using four different scientific approaches:

Adenovirus vaccines: 100 million doses Oxford University/AstraZeneca; 30 million doses Janssen

mRNA vaccines: 30 million doses BioNTech/Pfizer

Inactivated whole virus vaccines: 60 million doses Valneva

Protein adjuvant vaccines: 60 million doses GSK/Sanofi; 60 million doses Novavax

It takes Britain's potential stockpile to a total of 340 million doses - one of the biggest in the world.

 

Still doesn't look like putting all our eggs in one basket.

I never claimed Trump liked big pharma. It's irrelevant. But surely there's no way he'd let a US company sell to the rest of the world until the US had got all it needed. i.e. Never.

 

[Uptherams]

49 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Our economy seems to have suffered more than most and we've had more deaths per head than nearly all other countries. Other countries also had the virus before us, giving us the chance to learn from both their successes and failures. We lockdowned too late and were unable to put the sufficinet things in place to allow a smooth re-opening. The messaging has been poor and lots of contradictory guidelines and advice has been given.

There seems no end in sight and Brexit looks like it's gonna be a disaster. I wonder if we could put an emergency government together to try and reset and sort things out.

Maybe get Sunak, Starmer and Sturgeon all working together with some experienced cross party MPs. Bin off Johnson and Cummings and their incompetent yes men. We just seem to be sleep walking into disaster and nothing suggests things are going to get better soon.

The Labour party and leadership, along with every other party in this country, have shown absolutely no sign that they would have managed the last 6 months any better. The things Labour have been saying, indicate they would have been even more strict than this government. Which would have infringed on people's rights and freedoms more so and caused even more economic damage. Their health 'proposals' have been in hindsight throughout this, or they criticise the government after they make a decision. That's not leadership. 

The whole lot of them (Labour, Conservatives, Lib Dems, etc) are less than to be desired and have been for some time. All would have handled this at least as badly as this government has. 

Caroline Lucas going to a mass protest about this governments handling whilst not wearing a mask, coughing everywhere and drinking from someone else's water bottle, is the perfect illustration of all of this. The rest of them are full of just as much poo as this government. 

 

[BaaLocks]

1 hour ago, rammieib said:

I'm keen for normality to return as quickly as possible and people know my stance on things. I want normal back and I think seeing A) Job losses and B) the lack of NHS services are the two things which hurt me the most and why I think the Governments handling has gone from good to extremely poor now.

This last part is really important. For most of us the advance in knowledge on C-19 mean that draconian action is not needed at this time. We all should wear face masks in public and do everything possible to restrict spread of disease but we have seen advances that make this a different prospect to that we had in April. Treatment with steroids to prevent 'chain escalation' of symptoms, bed rotation and other measures means that as long as common sense is applied this is a manageable disease now (for all but the susceptible - elderly, immune deficient etc - and then they do need extra care and protection). But the impact to the economy now is just so massive (multiple that which the banking crisis bought) and without too much valid reason to continue as we are this misguided caution is doing little more than choking the economy our children will inherit and manage for the next thirty years. Again, I am not putting up a case for herd immunity or blatant disregard but I am saying that a few simple measures should be all that is needed to allow us to return much nearer to normal than we are currently seeing.

Of course, and this is where I get an eensy weeny bit foamy mouthed and ranty, the total incompetence displayed by the government at every single stage means that the trust in their ability to direct and manage us is now in utter tatters so any hope for structure and order moving forward is all but a dream.

[1of4]

Whoo Hoo, a new slogan. Hands Face Space.

[Wolfie]

3 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

This last part is really important. For most of us the advance in knowledge on C-19 mean that draconian action is not needed at this time. We all should wear face masks in public and do everytihng possible to restrict spread of disease but treatment with steroids to prevent 'chain escalation' of symptoms, bed rotation and other measures means that as long as common sense is applied we are at a stage where this is a manageable disease now (for all but the susceptible - elderly, immune deficient etc -and then they do need extra care and protection). But the impact to the economy now is just so massive (multiple that which the banking crisis bought) and without too much valid reason to continue that to continue with this misguided caution is doing little more than choking the economy our children will inherit and manage for the next thirty years. Again, I am not putting up a case for herd immunity or blatant disregard but I am saying that a few simple measures should be all that is needed to allow us to return much nearer to normal than we are currently seeing.

Of course, and this is where I get an eensy weeny bit foamy mouthed and ranty, the total incompetence displayed by the government at every single stage means that the trust in their ability to direct and manage us is now in utter tatters so any hope for structure and order moving forward is all but a dream.

A few simple measures are in place but too many people don't follow them.

Everyone knows what they should be doing and people saying they aren't going to do the right thing because of the government's direction and management is just a personal responsibility cop out.

[Uptherams]

5 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

This is from BBC on 14th August and I haven't found anything more recent that contradicts it:

The government has now purchased experimental coronavirus vaccines that have been developed using four different scientific approaches:

Adenovirus vaccines: 100 million doses Oxford University/AstraZeneca; 30 million doses Janssen

mRNA vaccines: 30 million doses BioNTech/Pfizer

Inactivated whole virus vaccines: 60 million doses Valneva

Protein adjuvant vaccines: 60 million doses GSK/Sanofi; 60 million doses Novavax

It takes Britain's potential stockpile to a total of 340 million doses - one of the biggest in the world.

 

Still doesn't look like putting all our eggs in one basket.

I never claimed Trump liked big pharma. It's irrelevant. But surely there's no way he'd let a US company sell to the rest of the world until the US had got all it needed. i.e. Never.

 

The only order on that list that has any merit is Oxford University/AstraZeneca. 

The UK government has paid for the privilege to get more vaccinations than it requires before anyone else gets any from them. 

The rest (and yes I am deeply sceptical) of the reported figures, are worse deals. They are not for a guaranteed minimum of 30 million for example. They are the maximum, the upper limits and we also aren't the first in the queue. 

As an example, if every company on that list had a vaccination tomorrow, within 6 months of release, 75% plus of the doses issued throughout the UK would come from Oxford University/AstraZeneca. 

As I say, we put most, the vast majority of our stake, on one horse. 

''Thirty million doses expected to be delivered in 2020 and 2021, subject to regulatory approval or authorization

Pfizer and BioNTech remain on track to begin an anticipated Phase 2b/3 safety and efficacy trial later this month, seek regulatory review as early as October 2020 and manufacture globally up to 100 million doses by the end of 2020 and more than 1.3 billion doses by the end of 2021''

Hence the reason the government are currently bricking it. They know what the real numbers are. They probably know if this vaccination was released tomorrow, that they'd be lucky to get a couple million before the end of this year. 

Personally however, I don't think any of this matters. The only people that need T-Cell vaccinations asap are the at risk and that number is significantly lower than the initially reported 3 million or so. 

[angieram]

2 hours ago, 1of4 said:

Whoo Hoo, a new slogan. Hands Face Space.

That's been in place for about 8 weeks! ?

I think that the people who weren't following the guidelines before will carry on not following them now.

So why punish the rest of us who were?

[BaaLocks]

2 hours ago, Van Wolfie said:

Everyone knows what they should be doing and people saying they aren't going to do the right thing because of the government's direction and management is just a personal responsibility cop out.

Nope, don't agree. If there had been clarity and direction from the start - with leaders following those actions - and a set of consequences that were clear and in place then we wouldn't have the same level of flagrant disregard that we see today. Government allowed too much to be advisory and open to interpretation because - frankly - they feared the litigious (and party funding / support withdrawal) response of being too draconian towards the private sector and the knowledge that they will need every ally as we march towards Brexit.

Or, if you want to follow the other line of thinking, they were too slow to dispel the herd immunity group think at the front end of the lockdown and from there the genie was well and truly out of the bottle. One famous trip to the opticians merely served to show those that wanted to that there was no leadership to speak of, then VE Day, BLM, bank holiday beaches were merely an extrapolation of that for those that chose to see it as the excuse they needed.

And when some form of relaxation came, the measures were unclear and unenforced (as anyone who has been to a pub in the past six weeks has seen) so everyone has drawn the conclusion that was right in front of our noses - they don't know what they're doing. Pop test and trace, testing, PPE, EU vaccine programmes, quarantine / immigration and every other touchpoint on top and you'd be somewhere near barmy to have confidence in this crew to manage us out of this.

I don't buy it's on us to just know how to behave - if that was the case we wouldn't need traffic lights, drink driving laws, seat belt regulations or planning permission.

[Rev]

2 hours ago, 1of4 said:

Whoo Hoo, a new slogan. Hands Face Space.

Sounds like a 90's night in Ibiza.

[Wolfie]

3 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

Nope, don't agree. If there had been clarity and direction from the start - with leaders following those actions - and a set of consequences that were clear and in place then we wouldn't have the same level of flagrant disregard that we see today. Government allowed too much to be advisory and open to interpretation because - frankly - they feared the litigious (and party funding / support withdrawal) response of being too draconian towards the private sector and the knowledge that they will need every ally as we march towards Brexit.

Or, if you want to follow the other line of thinking, they were too slow to dispel the herd immunity group think at the front end of the lockdown and from there the genie was well and truly out of the bottle. One famous trip to the opticians merely served to show those that wanted to that there was no leadership to speak of, then VE Day, BLM, bank holiday beaches were merely an extrapolation of that for those that chose to see it as the excuse they needed.

And when some form of relaxation came, the measures were unclear and unenforced (as anyone who has been to a pub in the past six weeks has seen) so everyone has drawn the conclusion that was right in front of our noses - they don't know what they're doing. Pop test and trace, testing, PPE, EU vaccine programmes, quarantine / immigration and every other touchpoint on top and you'd be somewhere near barmy to have confidence in this crew to manage us out of this.

I don't buy it's on us to just know how to behave - if that was the case we wouldn't need traffic lights, drink driving laws, seat belt regulations or planning permission.

Nah, still a cop out. The rules have changed along the way because it's an unprecedented fast changing situation but they have been communicated at every stage.

Selfish people claiming to be confused as justification for not being able to follow simple rules unless they are spoon fed and threatened with punishments like naughty children.

I've lost a lot more faith in the public during this than I have in politicians (all of them, btw)

[Mafiabob]