Foundations

[Bubbles]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

@Squid good post.

The one thing I cant reconcile though, you say he is laying the foundations but then say he will probably make loan signings in January?

For me, laying foundations is about getting a spine of a team to build around, and blooding other players around them.

The spine of our team is currently made up of:-

Roos - showing no signs of improvement and costing us goals on a regular basis. His backup is a loan player

Clarke/Davies - 1 a loan player, 1 coming to the end of his career. Neither overly comfortable with our style of play

Bielek - Showing glimpses that he could be a good player

Martin - Started well on his return but you have to wonder about his effectiveness in a team playing this way, we are just not creating chances

In terms of blooding players, I think it's been disappointing.

Lowe had a good run at right back and deserved a shot at left back but seems to have lost his place for no apparent reason.

Knight has looked good from what I've seen but cannot get a run of games.

Sibley appears to have been overlooked completely.

Mitchell Lawson not getting a look in despite the fact that Lawrence continues to play despite having a supposed drink problem!

It's way too early for anyone to be calling for Cocu's head but its definitely not too early to be asking questions about what direction we are heading in and what we are trying to achieve.

Hi mate.

Yes, I say that because I reckon Jan is too short to get many permanent deals over the line, This is for many reasons for example; We're not going to be able to sell many players (if any) - I reckon as a short term fix thats the most beneficial - also reduces the risk of panic signings,

 

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Getting key loan signings in (such as a CB) temporarily plugs a major weakness. It then allows us to play who we want further up the field without having to cover for that major weakness, or allows others to push further up the field. 

See comments above. As I've posted elsewhere. we've already seen as many academy players feature this season as we did last year. In terms of minutes, they're projected to have more game time.

Dont really agree with your first point. We've looked very weak in defence and we play most of our football in our own half.

Fair point about the academy players but I'd say Bogle and Lowe have both had s season of first team football so it's not like Cocu is blooding them.

I dont watch much of u23s so not sure who is and who isnt ready but from what I read I'd expected Sibley to be featuring this season. 

[Bubbles]

From what I've seen its mainly the facebook merchants that are calling for Cocu's head - clueless...

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Squid said:

Hi mate.

Yes, I say that because I reckon Jan is too short to get many permanent deals over the line, This is for many reasons for example; We're not going to be able to sell many players (if any) - I reckon as a short term fix thats the most beneficial - also reduces the risk of panic signings,

 

Yeah understand your logic. 

Surely though that means come the start of next season we are back at square one trying to introduce new players and get them used to playing how Cocu wants them to play.

For me a transitional season is about bringing in your own players and implementing a new system. Early days but don't see much of a blueprint yet.

[Bubbles]

5 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Yeah understand your logic. 

Surely though that means come the start of next season we are back at square one trying to introduce new players and get them used to playing how Cocu wants them to play.

For me a transitional season is about bringing in your own players and implementing a new system. Early days but don't see much of a blueprint yet.

I think that is what Cocu and co will be actively looking to do.

I'm sure they will be looking at bringing in these new players, hopefully we will see 2-3 new faces in Jan, and a good 5-6 in summer.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Squid said:

I think that is what Cocu and co will be actively looking to do.

I'm sure they will be looking at bringing in these new players, hopefully we will see 2-3 new faces in Jan, and a good 5-6 in summer.

Hope so.

Not really bothered how bad this season turns out as long as Cocu has laid out a long term plan.

Hopefully he has already identified players for next season.

[RiddingsRam]

Great post @Squid #trustinCocu

[Wolfie20]

54 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

 

Surely though that means come the start of next season we are back at square one trying to introduce new players and get them used to playing how Cocu wants them to play.

If Cocu is as astute as his managerial record would suggest then I'd expect him to bring in players that he's confident can already play how he wants them to. It's then a case of integrating them into the rest of the squad which is what a full pre-season should be all about.

I don't go with this 'we need 5 or 6 players' view - 2, maybe 3 in the right roles would make a major difference (plus a quality keeper).

[Ghost of Clough]

45 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Yeah understand your logic. 

Surely though that means come the start of next season we are back at square one trying to introduce new players and get them used to playing how Cocu wants them to play.

For me a transitional season is about bringing in your own players and implementing a new system. Early days but don't see much of a blueprint yet.

Good CBs tend to have the most inflated values in January windows. Plug the gap for 6 months with a loan, then get someone in in the summer.

We had Keogh, Evans, Davies, Clarke (with Bielik, Buchanan, Fozzy and Wisdom as emergency backup) at the end of the window which seemed to be enough at the time. Keogh's now out for the season, Evans has just returned to training and Clarke doesn't seem like the player we thought we were getting. 
Since the last window, we've moved from possibly needing 1 CB at the end of the season, to urgently needing one and needing another at the end of the season.

[mwram1973]

I loved Lampard tbh, but lets look at the facts, we had 3 superb loans last season and only just made the playoffs. Do we believe we would have got anywhere near the playoffs if we didn't have those 3?. IMO, not a chance. We were very poor in quite a few games last season.

Cocu doesn't have those type of players at his disposal, yet.

I don't go in for all this "a good manager adapts to his players strengths". For a system/philosophy to work, the players have to adapt.

I'm sure once he has some quality in the squad our fortunes will change. We've lost too many good players and it's showing. Give it time.

[Bubbles]

Another thing - In Cocu's first 16 games at PSV he only won 5 matches, then finished 4th in that same season after signing 5 players in the next transfer window.. Then, you guessed it, the next season they won the league,,,

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

On 21/10/2019 at 10:12, Big Trav said:

What we need to remember is also. Last season we were mighty at home but away we were shocking. The same is happening this season. Who remembers millwall away? Rotherham? Villa? Leeds? Ipswich?? We were shocking away from home and this is a recurring thing so we can’t blame cocu. It’s the players mentalities. Not cocu. He set out for the best team he could on Saturday and they let him down. 

I’ve always thought that apart from maybe three or four seasons ago , for a period of a couple years ...maybe McClaren days, Derby have always tended to be shocking away from home. I know there is a discrepancy with 90 per cent of teams between home and away form but Derby have always seemed to be easy pushovers away from form. Maybe stats say otherwise but would love to know how we are compared to others. 

[Ghost of Clough]

29 minutes ago, Davide said:

I’ve always thought that apart from maybe three or four seasons ago , for a period of a couple years ...maybe McClaren days, Derby have always tended to be shocking away from home. I know there is a discrepancy with 90 per cent of teams between home and away form but Derby have always seemed to be easy pushovers away from form. Maybe stats say otherwise but would love to know how we are compared to others. 

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[Van der MoodHoover]

Foundations sound good - reckon he's got a little way to go before he's finished digging out the footing meself..........?

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

Forgot how good we were 13/14. Good post. Looks like we’ve had some decent away seasons recently and some average. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

Some interesting data there. I wouldn't have thought from my recollections that we had a better season away under Rowett than under Frank. 

And this season we're on for one of our worst....

[Ambitious]

Football, at any level, but largely in the Championship is becoming unbearable. I can't remember a manager that people weren't clamoring to be sacked. Lampard was here for a season, finished in the top 6 and went on to be Chelsea manager, nevertheless there were still calls for his head at different points over the season. I just block out the nonsense. 

Cocu is clearly a decent manager, but he's done himself no favours up to now. It's not a call for him to be sacked or anything, but it's just an observation. I don't know who is in charge of what, but this team has dramatically gone backwards in terms of quality. We've recruited poorly, we're lacking depth in some areas and the team isn't built to any sort of system. It's just a mess. I've seen a lot of people say: 'it's going to take x amount of windows' and they're probably right, but the problem is that Cocu hasn't got that time. The fans are already turning, so you can imagine if it doesn't improve what it will be like in 3-4 months time. 

If Mel wants Cocu to be a success then he needs to help in January. Rooney will probably help, I don't know, but it certainly won't be enough. If he can bring in some of his own players in January and they show promise, even if it isn't enough to win us promotion, he earns himself enough time to finish the season. He then has to go through the same cycle again. 

In the Championship, it's not about building a great team. It's about surviving window to window. The fans in the Championship are the worst in the entire world for these week-to-week reactions. The owners, by and large, will appease the fans' will to keep their own head above water. 

[Jourdan]

55 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

Football, at any level, but largely in the Championship is becoming unbearable. I can't remember a manager that people weren't clamoring to be sacked. Lampard was here for a season, finished in the top 6 and went on to be Chelsea manager, nevertheless there were still calls for his head at different points over the season. I just block out the nonsense. 

Cocu is clearly a decent manager, but he's done himself no favours up to now. It's not a call for him to be sacked or anything, but it's just an observation. I don't know who is in charge of what, but this team has dramatically gone backwards in terms of quality. We've recruited poorly, we're lacking depth in some areas and the team isn't built to any sort of system. It's just a mess. I've seen a lot of people say: 'it's going to take x amount of windows' and they're probably right, but the problem is that Cocu hasn't got that time. The fans are already turning, so you can imagine if it doesn't improve what it will be like in 3-4 months time. 

If Mel wants Cocu to be a success then he needs to help in January. Rooney will probably help, I don't know, but it certainly won't be enough. If he can bring in some of his own players in January and they show promise, even if it isn't enough to win us promotion, he earns himself enough time to finish the season. He then has to go through the same cycle again. 

In the Championship, it's not about building a great team. It's about surviving window to window. The fans in the Championship are the worst in the entire world for these week-to-week reactions. The owners, by and large, will appease the fans' will to keep their own head above water. 

You say the recruitment was poor, we're lacking depth and the team doesn't fit a system - but is it any surprise? What happened over the summer can be attributed to the club's poor planning and little else. I don't think we were ever truly prepared for the eventuality of Lampard leaving.

While it's true that Lampard and Chelsea behaved in poor taste by drawing the situation out far longer than necessary, our lack of planning, organisation and proactivity behind the scenes has to be viewed as a disappointment. We were still clinging onto Frank like a 45-year-old woman clings onto her youth.

In the circumstances, Cocu's appointment has always had the feeling of right man, wrong time. The right calibre of manager, but absolutely the wrong timing. The kind of appointment to make in the Premier League, but not necessarily the Championship. It always felt to me like when you have a difficult break up with an ex, you are running on pure emotion, you are not thinking clearly and in an attempt at oneupmanship, you try to pull someone ordinarily out of your league.

I don't think you can blame Cocu very much at all for what has transpired. He has done his best in trying circumstances. The learning curve was always going to be steep. Perhaps if we had sounded him out in March when the Lampard to Chelsea rumours first kicked into gear, then probably he and the club would have been better prepared.

But as it was, everyone was caught on the hop. When he arrived, we were five weeks out from the start of the season and we were still reeling from Lampard's departure. Mel perhaps naively retained hope that Frank would stay and this was well into the summer months. When that didn't happen, the sensible thing to do would have been to appoint someone who could hit the ground running, pinpoint issues quickly, address them just as quickly, and most importantly someone with a similar philosophy. If not that, it had to be at least someone who could get their ideas across effectively to ensure a short and smooth transition from one manager to the next.

That much is obvious by the fact that Cocu's appointment was a surprise to everyone, as we were expecting someone like Hughton, Monk, Bowyer, or even Wassall to take the reins, someone who already had knowledge either of the club or EFL football.

I would say that the Championship is all about seizing your moment when it comes. There are always 2-3 teams who click one year after looking decidedly middle of the road the year before. Very few teams actually remain in the mix year on year, unless they have a long term plan in place. Usually most teams either grasp the nettle or fall back into the chasing pack.

I don't think the fans or the clubs are any more reactionary, demanding or difficult to please than any other division, personally. I think fans will back a manager when they can see a vision, a plan, a blueprint in place that they can get behind, even if results sometimes don't meet expectations.

[superzak]

without foundations Pride Park would slide down in to the fluorescent green mud below lol