Playing out from the Back

[Carl Sagan]

As others have said the issue is with the weakness of our midfield. Our team isn't geared up to pump it long, which means we need to play through midfield. But our midfield isn't working. To play from the back you need constant movement and rotation from the midfielders to receive the ball. It's tough for the defence when the midfield isn't providing sufficient options. 

Would any of Shinnie, Sibley, Dowell, Bird, Babos help compared with Bielik, Huddlestone, Holmes and Knight?

[Marriot Ram99]

2 hours ago, Andicis said:

Keogh most certainly is, and has done under many different managers we've had. He's a brilliant ball playing centre back.

Debatable that, hes good a bringing it out but tries it at risky occasions and he is a good passer when he actually knows where to pass and when to pass but far too often he goes back to the keeper or tries something really risky  and looses it, theres  no middle ground its easy back ways or side ways ,a great pass or an awful bit of play that puts us in trouble like he did yesterday. 

Keogh has won me over in the last year as I used to think he was crap , but I still am not confident with the ball at his feet , he can do some good pieces of play with the ball at times but he doesn't have the football brain of a good ball playing centre back, he rarely knows what he is going to do before he receives it and he needs to play it long sometimes and instead of playing back to the keeper which just ducks things up more than it does good.  Nothing frustrates me more than someone taking an absolute age on the ball only to play  a side ways or backwards  pass that is usually hit with no urgency and makes things difficult for the receiver, same applies to Clarke but as he is slower and less agile hes even worse as a ball playing defender.

For me only world class defenders and players like Ake, David Luiz (who at times is calamitous on the ball)  and Harry Maguire who are comfortable on the ball for Premier league standards are capable of playing the way we are trying to play on a consistent basis.  Even Leeds as we saw in the playoff 2nd leg got undone by overplaying  and they had a much better midfield than us.So it would be better for  2 of our midfielders to drop deeper to receive the ball before gradually working it down the field, as without the ability to play long diagonals or quick first time or 2 touch passes out to the fullbacks playing out from the back is detrimental rather than something which will help the team. We don't have to always play very direct but just not always rely on slow passes out from the back as it isn't achieving anything, and when team press us we are embarrassingly bad at trying to beat a good high press.

[Coneheadjohn]

2 hours ago, Andicis said:

Keogh most certainly is, and has done under many different managers we've had. He's a brilliant ball playing centre back.

Definitely,we’d be be in deep ?without him.

[TommyPowell]

7 hours ago, Carnero said:

very funny ,you obviously dont read typonese

[jono]

8 hours ago, Paul71 said:

For me its Roos biggest strength, and do feel he is better at this than Carson was.

Is the rest of his job i am worried about.

 

So right Paul. Roos gets the ball out quicker and more accurately than Scotty, but between the sticks to make a save or claim the ball .. Carson every day of the week. 

[Sith Happens]

5 minutes ago, jono said:

So right Paul. Roos gets the ball out quicker and more accurately than Scotty, but between the sticks to make a save or claim the ball .. Carson every day of the week. 

Its such a shame we let Carson go. People are complaining about Clarke and to a lesser degree Keogh, but as a central defender you HAVE to have confidence in your keeper.

He hardly ever comes out to claim anything and when he does he is often in no mans land. He hardly ever catches and his punches usually put us under more pressure.

I hate to single out players, but i really do think at the moment he is our weak link.

I think Carson would give our defence much more confidence, and to be fair with the new goal kick rules he may have handled the style of play better anyway.

 

[Andicis]

1 hour ago, Marriott Ram99 said:

Debatable that, hes good a bringing it out but tries it at risky occasions and he is a good passer when he actually knows where to pass and when to pass but far too often he goes back to the keeper or tries something really risky  and looses it, theres  no middle ground its easy back ways or side ways ,a great pass or an awful bit of play that puts us in trouble like he did yesterday. 

Keogh has won me over in the last year as I used to think he was crap , but I still am not confident with the ball at his feet , he can do some good pieces of play with the ball at times but he doesn't have the football brain of a good ball playing centre back, he rarely knows what he is going to do before he receives it and he needs to play it long sometimes and instead of playing back to the keeper which just ducks things up more than it does good.  Nothing frustrates me more than someone taking an absolute age on the ball only to play  a side ways or backwards  pass that is usually hit with no urgency and makes things difficult for the receiver, same applies to Clarke but as he is slower and less agile hes even worse as a ball playing defender.

For me only world class defenders and players like Ake, David Luiz (who at times is calamitous on the ball)  and Harry Maguire who are comfortable on the ball for Premier league standards are capable of playing the way we are trying to play on a consistent basis.  Even Leeds as we saw in the playoff 2nd leg got undone by overplaying  and they had a much better midfield than us.So it would be better for  2 of our midfielders to drop deeper to receive the ball before gradually working it down the field, as without the ability to play long diagonals or quick first time or 2 touch passes out to the fullbacks playing out from the back is detrimental rather than something which will help the team. We don't have to always play very direct but just not always rely on slow passes out from the back as it isn't achieving anything, and when team press us we are embarrassingly bad at trying to beat a good high press.

First paragraph is simply untrue. He often plays reasonable passes forward that aren't risky. 

If you used to think he was crap before the last year, I'm seriously questioning your ability to spot a player, Keogh has been top notch for many years now. What Championship defender for you does have a ''football brain'' of a good ball playing centre back then? Keogh is pretty good at moving the ball on quickly actually, I couldn't disagree more with a criticism of Keogh for being slow on the ball. 

Leeds did not get done by overplaying. That is absolute rubbish. Casilla made a mistake (not overplaying) we scored a brilliant goal through Mount (not overplaying), they gave away a dumb penalty (not overplaying) and then we cut through them when they tired with 10 men (not overplaying). The overplaying thing is a nonsensical cliche, if you watched the games, and I'm sure you did, you'd know that it simply untrue of that game.Playing out from the back can be done in other ways from that, we built from the back last season to reasonable success, you need two comfortable ball playing centre backs, which I don't think Clarke is, and a keeper comfortable with the ball at their feet.

We're not great at beating high press, but we weren't great at getting past Cardiff's no press either, so far it's a mixture of low confidence and injuries not helping. 

TL:DR I disagree with your criticisms of Keogh, the Leeds comment is outright wrong, and I think you're oversimplifying or just wrong in your statements about bringing it out from the back. 

[Andicis]

4 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

I think Carson would give our defence much more confidence

Why should he? The last few times we saw Carson play he was a calamity waiting to happen, worse than Roos, in fact. Carson is still dining on his reputation from his good season under Rowett. Carson is no better than Roos. It's not to say I don't agree we could do with a number 1, but Carson certainly wasn't the answer.

[Sith Happens]

3 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Why should he? The last few times we saw Carson play he was a calamity waiting to happen, worse than Roos, in fact. Carson is still dining on his reputation from his good season under Rowett. Carson is no better than Roos. It's not to say I don't agree we could do with a number 1, but Carson certainly wasn't the answer.

I personally would judge his ability on his overall career with Derby and he was mostly excellent. He had several injury issues last season which hampered him.

I cant agree Carson is no better than Roos,  i am struggling to think of any occasions where Roos made a save which made me think wow how did he get that.

Still Cocu obviously agrees with you which is all that matters really.

[Andicis]

Just now, Paul71 said:

I personally would judge his ability on his overall career with Derby and he was mostly excellent. He had several injury issues last season which hampered him.

I cant agree Carson is no better than Roos,  i am struggling to think of any occasions where Roos made a save which made me think wow how did he get that.

Still Cocu obviously agrees with you which is all that matters really.

But that seems foolish, Carson had an undeniably poor year, why does his past achievements mean anything when looking at how he can play today? Carson was brilliant under Rowett, but that's 2 years ago. He's only demonstrated that he's getting worse since. He was never good at distributing the ball and when his shot stopping starts to disappear then it shows that it was the right time to let him go. 

I can't think of many like that for Carson. At least Roos hasn't dropped quite so many howlers as Carson was towards the end of his Derby career. 

I do agree that we could certainly get a better keeper in than Roos, but let's not revise history now. Carson was dropped by Lampard for poor performances, that's why he was replaced by Roos to begin with.

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

I can't think of many like that for Carson. At least Roos hasn't dropped quite so many howlers as Carson was towards the end of his Derby career. 

I do agree that we could certainly get a better keeper in than Roos, but let's not revise history now. Carson was dropped by Lampard for poor performances, that's why he was replaced by Roos to begin with.

When Roos has had as long a career (even with Derby) as Carson come back to me. Yesterday Roos showed what he's really like as a keeper - headless chicken a couple of times, crazy passing ditto, etc.

Carson never got chance to get his place back as he was injured. 

Given's coaching must be under question for me. Where's Steele or Zubi when you need them...

[Andicis]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

When Roos has had as long a career (even with Derby) as Carson come back to me. Yesterday Roos showed what he's really like as a keeper - headless chicken a couple of times, crazy passing ditto, etc.

Carson never got chance to get his place back as he was injured. 

Given's coaching must be under question for me. Where's Steele or Zubi when you need them...

That's not relevant. Carson's career was good. So what? That doesn't make him a good keeper. Shay Given had a good career, should we bang him back in net? Of course not. You make it sound like I think Carson was always a bad keeper, which is false. As I've stated multiple times, but will again.

Carson was brilliant in 2017/18

But Carson was rubbish last year. Who gives a toss about Roos' whole career? It's about the here and now. And once again I'll say: I don't think Roos is brilliant. Please stop attacking strawman arguments I never made. It's a pointless waste of time.

 

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, Andicis said:

But Carson was rubbish last year. Who gives a toss about Roos' whole career? It's about the here and now. And once again I'll say: I don't think Roos is brilliant. Please stop attacking strawman arguments I never made. It's a pointless waste of time.

ALL of last year? He went though a bad patch, probably not as bad as the simple error from Roos at Wembley though. Your strawman arguement was that Roos deserved to play. Mine was that he's an average keeper who has reached his potential. At least with Carson you know he is capable of better.

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

ALL of last year? He went though a bad patch, probably not as bad as the simple error from Roos at Wembley though. Your strawman arguement was that Roos deserved to play. Mine was that he's an average keeper who has reached his potential. At least with Carson you know he is capable of better.

I didn't attack a strawman, I simply said that Carson was not better than Roos in current times, wasn't talking about over their whole career, or Carson hasn't been better in the past etc.

Yes, all of last year. I can't name a single game Carson played well in last year. He had some average games and a lot of bad ones. 

[RoyMac5]

Just now, Andicis said:

I didn't attack a strawman, I simply said that Carson was not better than Roos in current times, wasn't talking about over their whole career, or Carson hasn't been better in the past etc.

Yes, all of last year. I can't name a single game Carson played well in last year. He had some average games and a lot of bad ones. 

And the fact that Roos made a schoolboy error in his catching technique that cost us, you still think he's a better keeper? I guess we'll agree to differ about what makes a quality keeper.

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

And the fact that Roos made a schoolboy error in his catching technique that cost us, you still think he's a better keeper? I guess we'll agree to differ about what makes a quality keeper.

I never said Roos was a quality keeper, quite the contrary, I said we could do with upgrading multiple times. Just because I think Carson is worse, doesn't mean I think Roos is brilliant. But no, I don't think the one error at Wembley means anything. 

[Marriot Ram99]

2 hours ago, Andicis said:

First paragraph is simply untrue. He often plays reasonable passes forward that aren't risky. 

If you used to think he was crap before the last year, I'm seriously questioning your ability to spot a player, Keogh has been top notch for many years now. What Championship defender for you does have a ''football brain'' of a good ball playing centre back then? Keogh is pretty good at moving the ball on quickly actually, I couldn't disagree more with a criticism of Keogh for being slow on the ball. 

Leeds did not get done by overplaying. That is absolute rubbish. Casilla made a mistake (not overplaying) we scored a brilliant goal through Mount (not overplaying), they gave away a dumb penalty (not overplaying) and then we cut through them when they tired with 10 men (not overplaying). The overplaying thing is a nonsensical cliche, if you watched the games, and I'm sure you did, you'd know that it simply untrue of that game.Playing out from the back can be done in other ways from that, we built from the back last season to reasonable success, you need two comfortable ball playing centre backs, which I don't think Clarke is, and a keeper comfortable with the ball at their feet.

We're not great at beating high press, but we weren't great at getting past Cardiff's no press either, so far it's a mixture of low confidence and injuries not helping. 

TL:DR I disagree with your criticisms of Keogh, the Leeds comment is outright wrong, and I think you're oversimplifying or just wrong in your statements about bringing it out from the back. 

I didn't think he was crap before last  season, but I didn't rate him much thought he was far too inconsistent and played badly when the going got tough . Last season he was very good after a very bad start, but I still don't think we can rely on our defenders to kick start our attacks, I would rather our midfielders took a lot more responsibility. Leeds in the play offs  did come unstuck at times against us due to dilly dallying on the ball and when they got tired mistakes kicked in, they didn't loose just becuase of that as the howler for  our first  and the red card played a big part but overplaying did play a part in their downfall 2nd half.

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, Marriott Ram99 said:

I didn't think he was crap before last this season, but I didn't rate him much thought he was far too inconsistent and played badly when the going got tough . Last season he was very good after a very bad start, but I still don't think we can rely on our defenders to kick start our attacks, I would rather our midfielders took a lot more responsibility. Leeds did come unstuck at times against us due to dilly dallying on the ball and when they got tired mistakes kicked in, they didn't loose just becuase of that but overplaying did play a part in their downfall 2nd half.

The midfield should take responsibility, but if we're continuing with the example of Leeds, they have Ben White, who is extremely comfortable on the ball at the back which helps them bring it forward. Cooper isn't bad either. We have Keogh who's good, and Clarke who isn't great so far. But that's not about them playing it out from the back. Leeds got caught out because they tired and didn't play well. They are a proven example of how well it can work when you play it out from the back, not an example against doing it.

 

[Coneheadjohn]

This made me laugh.

But I can’t show it?

[plymouthram]

12 hours ago, Anag Ram said:

We're definitely not good enough to do it. As I have said elsewhere the main issue is our midfield isn't mobile enough to find space the defence can pass into. Indeed the entire team fails to work hard enough to ensure we keep possession. 

One of the worst aspects is the number of times we pass back to the keeper who often has no option other than to pump the ball in the air towards our diminutive forwards. 

In the second half yesterday the midfield pushed on a bit and Leeds stopped pressing quite so hard. 

The team looked more confident on the ball and occasionally passed forwards rather than sideways or backwards. 

We are'nt good enough to do it against a side that press high, like Leeds do. In the second half when we took off one of our two holding midfielders, yes because we had on extra player higher up the pitch giving us more options. (Leeds stopped pressing hard, because they run out of steam)