v Forest (A) Carabao Cup Match Thread

[DCFC1388]

1 minute ago, Andicis said:

Forest made 8 changes, put they didn't take the piss with theirs. They kept some of their talent on the pitch in the likes of Lolley. That's what we should have done, in my opinion, or just drop out and don't bother playing cup games, it's a waste of everyone's time and money if the manager doesn't give a poo anyway. What did we really learn tonight? 

I don't think we learned anything. We had a horrible mess of young players thrown in deep, and experienced pros who aren't good enough, how can you learn anything that way? You don't build fitness against your local rivals, I'm sorry, you don't. Utilise your squad, but be reasonable. 

You say be reasonable with utilising the squad but there were only 3 young players who started and Buchanan played on Sat so not exactly thrown in. Davies was a regular last season until his injury, Evans & Clarke both started the season in our 1st team, Holmes likely will be in the starting 11 when fit & Paterson & Bennett will likely rotate with FloJo & Lawrence so it wasnt really as bad a line up as people were making out. Could it have been stronger, yes of course but so could have Forests, could they have performed better, yes of course but id rather lose with that team than with our 1st team or risk any injuries to our 1st team as clearly our backups arent good enough in alot of peoples eyes based on tonights result.

Had a few minor details (Waghorns missed pens) gone our way in the league and we sat here with a couple more wins & points I do wonder if this overreaction by many would be happening.

[Will the Ram]

@Super Derby Super Rams 

I presume you mean they 7 unbeaten against us at the Sh*ty Ground? We’ve beaten them at home a couple of times in recent seasons.

@deano180

Yes we did lose to Bolton after the Man Utd game but we beat Birmingham after playing Chelsea. The Rotherham loss wasn’t after a cup game. 

 

Very disappointed with Cocu’s team selection. Not the right fixture to play a second team imo. As others have said if you’re blooding some youth players they need some of the first team with them. A lack of strike force didn’t help either.

I thought Sibley & Mitchell-Lawson looked decent though.

We were never really in the game and I think that’s the most disappointing thing. We didn’t really look a threat all night.

 

[Andicis]

Just now, DCFC1388 said:

You say be reasonable with utilising the squad but there were only 3 young players who started and Buchanan played on Sat so not exactly thrown in. Davies was a regular last season until his injury, Evans & Clarke both started the season in our 1st team, Holmes likely will be in the starting 11 when fit & Paterson & Bennett will likely rotate with FloJo & Lawrence so it wasnt really as bad a line up as people were making out. Could it have been stronger, yes of course but so could have Forests, could they have performed better, yes of course but id rather lose with that team than with our 1st team or risk any injuries to our 1st team as clearly our backups arent good enough in alot of peoples eyes based on tonights result.

Had a few minor details (Waghorns missed pens) gone our way in the league and we sat here with a couple more wins & points I do wonder if this overreaction by many would be happening.

Sibley and Whittaker were throw in the deep end of an in-cohesive team, they were never going to be able to perform properly with those surroundings and we basically learned nothing. We may as well have not played them. They came on, ran around a bit, got the ball played around them and barely got to touch it. Davies was a season regular, when he got injured in the second game of the season and was out for the rest of it? That is either an abysmal memory or just a shocking lack of research. 

Holmes sure, was happy to see him back. Paterson just hasn't been good enough, I'll be worried if he's starting for us. Clarke was dropped last game because of poor performances, of which he had another tonight. 

Now our first team has been ''rested'' we better bloody win at Brentford, because Phil doesn't get to not give it a go against our local rivals and then have our main team drop a disastrous performance on the weekend.

It's not an overreaction. We got beaten 3-0 by our local rivals, we looked poo, and we barely score goals in open play and haven't all season. If Phil gives me something to cheer I'll get behind it, I'm just putting it how I see it, and so far, there is very little positivity to feel, and a whole lot of concern.

[Ruud Aralliss]

3 hours ago, DCFC1388 said:

But if Waghorn scored 2 pens we would have 3 wins and 10pts, small margins

If my auntie had wheels she would be a bike

[RandomAccessMemory]

7 minutes ago, Andicis said:

That's completely false. Look at the 11's he put out. We started almost a first team against Accrington.

And Bogle got sent off very late on in that game and subsequently missed the Preston game, which we drew. Might that game have ended in a win with Bogle available?

Decisions on who to field in cup games are notoriously tricky, I can't be critical of a manager doing what he thinks is the right thing when we have little to no chance of actually winning a cup at the end of it.

33 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Just got back from the City Ground, expect a lot of negativity and pessimism in my rant below.

I'll preface this by saying I don't want Cocu out. 

However, I'm absolutely disgusted with his lack of respect for the fans, the cup tournament in general, and even Nottingham Forest. If you want to make changes, do what Forest did, tinker with some personnel, but keep the spine. What Phil did was stick two fingers up at all of us who attended the game and wasted our money buying tickets and said he didn't care.

I'm equally enraged by the pathetic, mealy mouthed interview in which he gave after when he said it was a big game, yet put out almost no first choice players. That is a dishonest and just pure lip service Phil, you didn't give one poo about how big the game was, you just wanted it out the way. I'd have more respect for him if he came out and just admitted he didn't care about the cup, to be honest. 

What I used to really respect Lampard for, is he would always put out a strong team for the cup, he would go for it, Cocu's approach tonight is something that is wrong with football. I don't care how unlikely it is that we win the cup (it's even more unlikely we'll win the league), I strongly believe you should play every football game with the intention of winning. Devaluing of cups is pathetic. 

I won't slag off any of the young players out there tonight, they should have been introduced slowly into a settled side with a spine, not thrown in the deep end against our biggest rivals. Some of the older players were embarrassing though. Davies was a shambles, Paterson was shocking, Bennett just isn't a centre forward.

We barely score goals in open play. It's an epidemic for us. I don't see where they're coming from. Marriott would score, but we never create opportunities. We're extremely pedestrian on the ball, and our defending isn't brilliant.

You really respected Lampard for putting out strong teams in the cup, but I can't help wondering what did you make of his selections in the play offs? Something we actually had a chance at winning. When we had how many fans in attendance at Wembley?

[Gil]

2 hours ago, GrimsbyRam said:

Really? Our squad is nowhere near top 6 material. We scraped in last year with Mount, Wilson and Tomori.

With a rookie manager who had to drastically change the style from Rowett.

If Cocu really is a massive upgrade like everyone claimed then I don't think 6th is all that unrealistic. Look at what Bielsa has done at Leeds with a mediocre squad.

We were two penalties missed penalties away from being 4th. The squad is much better than you're given them credit for.

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

And Bogle got sent off very late on in that game and subsequently missed the Preston game, which we drew. Might that game have ended in a win with Bogle available?

Decisions on who to field in cup games are notoriously tricky, I can't be critical of a manager doing what he thinks is the right thing when we have little to no chance of actually winning a cup at the end of it.

You really respected Lampard for putting out strong teams in the cup, but I can't help wondering what did you make of his selections in the play offs? Something we actually had a chance at winning. When we had how many fans in attendance at Wembley?

Who can say how the Preston game would have ended with Bogle? But at least I left Accrington that day satisfied that we picked a strong team and actually tried to go out and win. 

We have little to no chance of winning the Championship at the end of it. Does that mean we shouldn't try? Absolutely not, that would be absurd. Winning breeds winning. I think we should play to win every game, I don't care if that's viewed as naieve, but if you don't give a poo about a local rivalry, why are you even in football? 

I would have started Marriott and I wouldn't have started 2 holding mids. But Lampard believed that was the strongest team to start with. You aren't telling me Cocu thought the 11 tonight was the strongest he could have picked. I'm not having it.

[Ruud Aralliss]

2 hours ago, jimbo jones said:

Not sure I agree with that to be honest.

The win at old Trafford gave a lot of fans that were there a night that will be spoke about and remembered for years. They are the times that you remember why you go to matches and get your kids involved.

Cup runs might not be important but seeing my son bouncing etc is.

[DCFC1388]

4 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Sibley and Whittaker were throw in the deep end of an in-cohesive team, they were never going to be able to perform properly with those surroundings and we basically learned nothing. We may as well have not played them. They came on, ran around a bit, got the ball played around them and barely got to touch it. Davies was a season regular, when he got injured in the second game of the season and was out for the rest of it? That is either an abysmal memory or just a shocking lack of research. 

Holmes sure, was happy to see him back. Paterson just hasn't been good enough, I'll be worried if he's starting for us. Clarke was dropped last game because of poor performances, of which he had another tonight. 

Now our first team has been ''rested'' we better bloody win at Brentford, because Phil doesn't get to not give it a go against our local rivals and then have our main team drop a disastrous performance on the weekend.

It's not an overreaction. We got beaten 3-0 by our local rivals, we looked poo, and we barely score goals in open play and haven't all season. If Phil gives me something to cheer I'll get behind it, I'm just putting it how I see it, and so far, there is very little positivity to feel, and a whole lot of concern.

Its only a few games into the season though, he is still learning his best line up & formation, these things take time. He also hasnt had a full squad to choose from at any stage yet either, at no point have Bogle Holmes Bielik & Marriott all been available at the same time, lets see where we are after 10-15 games before we start to feel concerned as im sure not too many were concerned with our style of play etc at half time vs Huddersfield when we played some top quality football & scored twice from open play.

And with reagrds my memory & Davies I think you may need to have a look at your own memory & research. Davies did get injured during the opening game but he came back into the first team before his season ending injury away at Stoke at the end of November

[MuespachRam]

2 hours ago, GrimsbyRam said:

Really? Our squad is nowhere near top 6 material. We scraped in last year with Mount, Wilson and Tomori.

And since then we have broke our transfer record on a player and brought in England’s record ever goal scorer and changed the manger to a much more experienced/successful manager..... 

[DCFC1388]

7 minutes ago, Ruda Harliss said:

If my auntie had wheels she would be a bike

Or a car, maybe even a plane but my guess is she just has roller skates on.

My point was that yes the table & points dont look great but they could have easily looked much better had he scored a penalty as we and he would expect him to do.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

24 minutes ago, eezzeetiger said:

Mr Whitehead was a Wollaton (Nottingham) lad

You could well be right .  As I said only got tickets for events by proxy, spoke to him briefly a few times but not a friend. He was quite good friends with a few blokes I knew.   He seemed to know a fair few people here .  Weirdly, I recall his dad may have been a headmaster at a school in Derby - don't know where that just came from .

27 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said:

Was the warm up you knew Rob Webster? He was the only resident warm up I remember because I know they pulled in local dj's at every event to spread the word and to warm up.

I owned Play in Matlock at the time and out vinyl buyer Nick Morley warmed up there.

I'll not bore others with our memoirs, but in all honesty, Renaissance was never really Renaissance after it left Venue 44 in that sad sack of a town, Mansfield. Those early days were some of the best nights of my life.

I have never been in a club where so people were from the town it was in never even knew it existed - even though people were traveling to it from all over the UK.

It was incredible when Sasha and Digweed were there. Even Oakenfold kicked ass in those days. Amd Graeme Park was always my favorite.

Pete and Russell did a great job with Hot To Trot there, but it was never quite the same.

I met Allister(complete with weird spelling) a few times at Hot To Trot events, but whisper it quietly - he was actually from Nottingham. 

 

No, the DJ I knew was from Manchester studying at Derby University, so he probably worked there about a year or so. Going back to 94/95 time  He also worked at Bar 101 another bar with decent music .  Really, loved Progress more than Renaissance, although both were good .  Progress was always a little less pretentious and bit wilder.  Bit like Amnesia compared to Pacha which I visited twice and that was enough.  Boring as poo.

Hot to Trot - if you've got any of the pig flyers might be worth a few quid now .

[Andicis]

3 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said:

Its only a few games into the season though, he is still learning his best line up & formation, these things take time. He also hasnt had a full squad to choose from at any stage yet either, at no point have Bogle Holmes Bielik & Marriott all been available at the same time, lets see where we are after 10-15 games before we start to feel concerned as im sure not too many were concerned with our style of play etc at half time vs Huddersfield when we played some top quality football & scored twice from open play.

And with reagrds my memory & Davies I think you may need to have a look at your own memory & research. Davies did get injured during the opening game but he came back into the first team before his season ending injury away at Stoke at the end of November

I'm not saying I'm done with Cocu, or he should be fired. I'm giving him criticism for tonight purely, this is by no means writing him off. I just don't agree with him tonight, and I think he doesn't properly understand the magnitude of the game to the club. Or he does and doesn't give a poo, which is probably worse. Huddersfield was alright. But we've regressed since. You can't keep clinging to that as an example, one decent half vs Huddersfield. We're desperately struggling for open play goals.

You called Curtis a season regular with a total of 5 apps. That's just objectively nonsense though, isn't it?

[Ambitious]

I've just got back, so following on from my view I'll do a little ratings - although I left at 74 to get a beer:

Hamer - 6 - He had a tough night. A great save early on, but nothing he could do about the two goals that I saw. 

Holmes - 6 - If he did the same job at CM then it would be higher, but he's far too small for a RB. He's still got a lot of ability.
Bucanan - 4 - It showed he was a CB at LB tonight. 
Clarke - 6 - Tidy footwork at times, but unsteady at others.
Davies - 5 - Doesn't fit the system. 

Evans - 4 - Tried to do Huddlestone's job without the ability. He's more mobile, but he's not a DM, he's a lot better at CB or CM. 
Shinnie - 3 - No idea whether he should be playing DM, LB or what - absolutely not a chance he's a CM. 
Sibley - 6 - Positioning was awful, but he's a good player. I'd play him alongside someone and he's ready for the first team. 

Paterson - 3 - He's got so little quality that it hurts. I just don't see the upside in him, he used to be quick but he's not even got that anymore. Technically worse than any other winger we have, positioning may be slightly better, but he's got nothing once he gets the ball.
Bennett - 3 - He's an okay winger, definitely not a striker. He had the hardest job of anyone tonight.
Whittaker - 4 - He's not quite ready, physically or tactically. I think he's got potential, but he's at least a year away. 

MJL - He was a bright spark once he got on. He's got plenty of potential for a run in the first team.

[Jourdan]

I got back from a day of house hunting in Porto and I didn’t even wince reading the scoreline.

It is a great feeling to win at Forest but we haven’t won there since 2012.

Despite being a top 10 Championship team and a better team than Forest for years (if league position is the measure) and despite the best efforts of numerous managers, we haven’t made our superiority count by going there and winning. Even McClaren and the golden boy Lampard couldn’t do it.

It is a difficult place to get a result - even at the best of times. Cocu isn’t the first Rams manager and won’t be the last to taste defeat there.

Perspective is needed. The games v Forest won’t define our season. It’s a nice memory to take away if you win them, but what matters is where we are in May.

For Forest, one suspects tonight will be one of the few highlights of their season. We have bigger ambitions. And should those not be realised, we’ll be back next year with another opportunity to get one over them. So what’s the fuss?

It’s the League Cup - a competition people only take notice of in February. We are two Championship clubs and we both played weakened sides.

In the grand scheme of things, what does it matter? Should we be up in arms if Derby County Ladies or the under 7s suffer the same fate?

Forest will likely play Crawley in the next round, put in an uninspired performance and lose, and tonight will be a distant memory.

[Ruud Aralliss]

2 hours ago, CHCDerby said:

Only if people can’t see the long term plan and are short sighted. 

I’m guessing you didn’t queue for 2 hrs for a ticket and actually go tonight . If everybody just sat on their backside waiting fit the long term plan to happen the support would be poor, 

[DCFC1388]

2 minutes ago, Andicis said:

I'm not saying I'm done with Cocu, or he should be fired. I'm giving him criticism for tonight purely, this is by no means writing him off. I just don't agree with him tonight, and I think he doesn't properly understand the magnitude of the game to the club. Or he does and doesn't give a poo, which is probably worse. Huddersfield was alright. But we've regressed since. You can't keep clinging to that as an example, one decent half vs Huddersfield. We're desperately struggling for open play goals.

You called Curtis a season regular with a total of 5 apps. That's just objectively nonsense though, isn't it?

What i meant was he was a starter when fit and would've been regular had he been fit.

I dont deny we havent played as well as we did vs Huddersfield but in bit parts we have played some good stuff and I have no doubt that given time we will see that more often, I do also think the injury to Bogle has massively hindered us due to the unbalance in the team. 

I think Cocu saw tonight as just another cup tie, the majority will disagree but some, like myself, will agree with him. The bigger picture for the season is more important than just tonights game, and judging from Cocus comments I think that is what he was looking at. We have to remember whilst criticising the lineup that they did make 8 changes too so took it as seriously as we did only their squad players outperformed ours.

[Andicis]

Just now, DCFC1388 said:

What i meant was he was a starter when fit and would've been regular had he been fit.

I dont deny we havent played as well as we did vs Huddersfield but in bit parts we have played some good stuff and I have no doubt that given time we will see that more often, I do also think the injury to Bogle has massively hindered us due to the unbalance in the team. 

I think Cocu saw tonight as just another cup tie, the majority will disagree but some, like myself, will agree with him. The bigger picture for the season is more important than just tonights game, and judging from Cocus comments I think that is what he was looking at. We have to remember whilst criticising the lineup that they did make 8 changes too so took it as seriously as we did only their squad players outperformed ours.

What is this bigger picture I'm supposed to be looking at? We haven't been brilliant in our league games, but now suddenly we're too good to bother turning up against our local rivals, and we can offset any criticism of Cocu for not bothering trying by telling people to look at the bigger picture, well what am I supposed to be seeing? We've won 2 games, 1 of them was Scunthorpe, the other was Huddersfield who are now in absolute free fall. 

We barely score goals. We look off balanced, we're still leaking a lot at the back. I kind of need something to cling to here, I'm not seeing this bigger picture everyone is telling me I should be looking at, I know we had a rough preseason, and I know the squad isn't Phil's yet, but the football is hardly flowing is it? He's not exactly trying to get the fans on board with giving up on games vs our biggest rivals. Maybe it'll all turn around and I'm just a doubter, but I really don't know what I'm supposed to be seeing as this bright light at the end of the tunnel.

[Mafiabob]

12 minutes ago, Andicis said:

I'm not saying I'm done with Cocu, or he should be fired. I'm giving him criticism for tonight purely, this is by no means writing him off. I just don't agree with him tonight, and I think he doesn't properly understand the magnitude of the game to the club. Or he does and doesn't give a poo, which is probably worse. Huddersfield was alright. But we've regressed since. You can't keep clinging to that as an example, one decent half vs Huddersfield. We're desperately struggling for open play goals.

You called Curtis a season regular with a total of 5 apps. That's just objectively nonsense though, isn't it?

When your 10-20 years older..... you’ll realise it don’t mean as much this game. I was the same as you at your age..... nowadays, it’s just a days piss take on social media and work. 

Dont let football ruin your day. It’s a loss..... see the bigger picture. 

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, Mafiabob said:

When your 10-20 years older..... you’ll realise it don’t mean as much this game. I was the same as you at your age..... nowadays, it’s just a days piss take on social media and work. 

Dont let football ruin your day. It’s a loss..... see the bigger picture. 

Maybe, but I'm not 10 years older. I don't think it's asking a lot of the manager of Derby to care about our rivalry with Forest and put out a respectable lineup. I don't think that should be a controversial opinion.