G STAR RAM Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, SaintRam said: I agree. BUT the specific context we're discussing it in, is the words being used to ABUSE football players at football matches. That is the context. That is homophobia. That is racism. Doesn't matter if the fan shouting it "isn't normally like that", doesn't matter if "their best friend is black" or "they work with gay people". That just is what it is. So using this context you are wanting all abuse at football matches to be outlawed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: So using this context you are wanting all abuse at football matches to be outlawed? Mock their lack of footballing ability? Go for it. Laugh at a poo haircut? Go for it. Call them a twit cos they scored against you? Fair play. None of those cases are even remotely similar, and if you don't understand why I'd suggest seeking an educational course on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, SaintRam said: Mock their lack of footballing ability? Go for it. Laugh at a poo haircut? Go for it. Call them a twit cos they scored against you? Fair play. None of those cases are even remotely similar, and if you don't understand why I'd suggest seeking an educational course on the matter. None of the above instances are abusive are they or am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Just now, G STAR RAM said: None of the above instances are abusive are they or am I missing something? Well I'd imaging cruder terminology would be used at a football match ? Words that one would describe as "abusive" without them being slurs. I can't write them out on an auto-censoring forum. I don't think that should be outlawed. Of course my even though my opinion is obviously that Homophobic/Racist slurs should be outlawed, that opinion is moot because they already are. People already get kicked out/banned for it and long may it continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamRam Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Yes maybe they did. Yes I'd say I'm in a better position to comment on my own family and friends than you are. Is that really a shock to you? Sure you would have your own experiences that you would comment on and believe to enhance your point of view. Or do you just go off what other people tell you to think? My own experiences? Quite a lot, it would be very hypocritical of me given I went to football matches when racism was at its worse and have been part of things that I’m not to proud off in my earlier years, to be judgemental or righteous of people given that. Having gone to games for many a year and living in the Derby area from the people I know, racism is still very prominent and although not on the same level as before, some of the stuff I hear is still not acceptable and I’m more than happy to tell them this. I understand that sometimes it’s very difficult for people to change their views, from a family point we have experienced one off comments (and more) from friends and other members of the family directed at one of our newest members who has married into the family, quite often when challenging the individual they believe they are not racist so are probably preaching these same values to their children. Problem is when going to football games people feel more confident in expressing these views when around like minded people, saying racist language is acceptable as a one off is wrong, it shouldn’t be tolerated at any level, I feel for your friends that they wouldn’t take offence, maybe they are just used to it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, AdamRam said: Problem is when going to football games people feel more confident in expressing these views when around like minded people, saying racist language is acceptable as a one off is wrong, it shouldn’t be tolerated at any level, I feel for your friends that they wouldn’t take offence, maybe they are just used to it ? At no point in time have I said racist language is acceptable as a one off. I've said I'm not in a position to judge whether someone is using language in a racist context from hearing them say a word once. Theres a big big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, SaintRam said: Well I'd imaging cruder terminology would be used at a football match ? Words that one would describe as "abusive" without them being slurs. I can't write them out on an auto-censoring forum. I don't think that should be outlawed. So you are happy with some footballers to receive abuse on how they look or things that may have happened in their private lives as long as its not racist or homophobic? Just trying to assess where people draw the line and how they decide words that are (un)acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 41 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: My point is you cant just read about something and say its racist language or behaviour. It needs context. The use of the n word by rappers being the perfect example. Is the n word racist or not? I believe it's possible for people to use language that other class as homophobic or racist but for it not to be racist behaviour. Fair enough. I think the ignorance being shown is by people trying to use football as a vehicle for promoting things that 90% of people attending could not give a flying duck about! Maybe it's my age or just the way I was brought up but I think most people at a football match dont care about the colour or sexual orientation of players. 30 years ago maybe but not now. I understand where you're coming from. As you put it: "it needs context". There's a bit of a difference between mocking a close friend or family member for being gay, to 100s of random blokes in the stand hurling abuse at a young lad for being gay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: I understand where you're coming from. As you put it: "it needs context". There's a bit of a difference between mocking a close friend or family member for being gay, to 100s of random blokes in the stand hurling abuse at a young lad for being gay Agreed. Also hurling abuse to me would mean it's not a one off comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamRam Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: At no point in time have I said racist language is acceptable as a one off. I've said I'm not in a position to judge whether someone is using language in a racist context from hearing them say a word once. Theres a big big difference. Maybe I misunderstood when you typed the below, you said that your kids wouldn’t be bothered if they heard you say words that would appear to others as homophobic ? Or using the N word is dependent on being used on more than one occasion ? Do you not agree that any racist language, however it is lent is not acceptable in this day and age, no matter what the circumstances ? “Chucking a banana yes as I think it's most likely a premeditated act. Using the N word? Depends if it was persistent or just a one of occasion. Got a family member who is gay. I dont care. My kids dont care. Never seen or heard anyone who has a problem with it. Does it mean that I never use any words that some people would think make me homophobic? No. Would they be bothered if they heard me use words that others would class as homophobic? No.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: So you are happy with some footballers to receive abuse on how they look or things that may have happened in their private lives as long as its not racist or homophobic? Just trying to assess where people draw the line and how they decide words that are (un)acceptable. I'm not the person to educate you in this issue to be honest, and this is quite tiresome. But I'll leave you with this, As a young'en, I had a very visible physical defect (I no longer have it thanks to surgery), and often generic abuse (of the football fan type) I received was directed at it. All in good fun. I'm also not straight. And I've had abuse target that. They're not the same. Have a pleasant day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 19 minutes ago, AdamRam said: Maybe I misunderstood when you typed the below, you said that your kids wouldn’t be bothered if they heard you say words that would appear to others as homophobic ? Or using the N word is dependent on being used on more than one occasion ? Do you not agree that any racist language, however it is lent is not acceptable in this day and age, no matter what the circumstances ? “Chucking a banana yes as I think it's most likely a premeditated act. Using the N word? Depends if it was persistent or just a one of occasion. Got a family member who is gay. I dont care. My kids dont care. Never seen or heard anyone who has a problem with it. Does it mean that I never use any words that some people would think make me homophobic? No. Would they be bothered if they heard me use words that others would class as homophobic? No.” Definitely misinterpreted what I said or I did not explain myself very well. Do not subject my kids to language like that. Why? Because it's not the world that they are growing up in. Was more on about among friends who I have grown up with using such language. As already explained, I dont buy into 'homophobic or racist language' they are just words and it is the context in which they are used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 21 minutes ago, SaintRam said: I'm not the person to educate you in this issue to be honest, and this is quite tiresome. But I'll leave you with this, As a young'en, I had a very visible physical defect (I no longer have it thanks to surgery), and often generic abuse (of the football fan type) I received was directed at it. All in good fun. I'm also not straight. And I've had abuse target that. They're not the same. Have a pleasant day. I dont need educating thank you, I'm quite capable of forming my own opinions based on my own life experiences. You may think my opinion is wrong and I may think yours is. Doesn't mean one of us has to be right and the other one wrong. Have a great day too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFruitsRam7 Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 18 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: I dont need educating thank you, I'm quite capable of forming my own opinions based on my own life experiences. You may think my opinion is wrong and I may think yours is. Doesn't mean one of us has to be right and the other one wrong. Have a great day too. You've literally had a non-straight man (who has shown throughout his time on this forum that he's a reasonable, well-informed poster) that there is a big difference between being abused for physical appearance and being abused for sexuality. Yet you're maintaining that you're right simply because you reckon your mates wouldn't be that bothered? 'Your own life experiences' are that of a straight, (presumably) white male. As are mine. I don't think it's our place to tell non-white or non-hetero people that they're wrong for taking racist or homophobic abuse as being the work of racists or homophobes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 10 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said: You've literally had a non-straight man (who has shown throughout his time on this forum that he's a reasonable, well-informed poster) that there is a big difference between being abused for physical appearance and being abused for sexuality. Yet you're maintaining that you're right simply because you reckon your mates wouldn't be that bothered? 'Your own life experiences' are that of a straight, (presumably) white male. As are mine. I don't think it's our place to tell non-white or non-hetero people that they're wrong for taking racist or homophobic abuse as being the work of racists or homophobes. So one poster speaks for the whole nation? So if I say that being abused or being fat and bald is hurtful and should be outlawed because it offends me does that become gospel too? Anyway. I'm out of this discussion as appears I'm offending people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Just out of interest -if this player were to come out, and they played at Pride Park - and then you attended the match and found yourself in the vicinity of someone using homophobic language repeatedly in that player's direction... what would you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFruitsRam7 Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Just out of interest -if this player were to come out, and they played at Pride Park - and then you attended the match and found yourself in the vicinity of someone using homophobic language repeatedly in that player's direction... what would you do? At a home game (I sit in the North Stand), report it to the nearest steward. At an away game, tell them to shut the duck up and report it to the nearest steward. At least I'd like to think I'd have the balls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamRam Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 42 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Definitely misinterpreted what I said or I did not explain myself very well. Do not subject my kids to language like that. Why? Because it's not the world that they are growing up in. Was more on about among friends who I have grown up with using such language. As already explained, I dont buy into 'homophobic or racist language' they are just words and it is the context in which they are used. Just words...you will be quoting the sticks and stones verse next. Glad you and your friends find it acceptable, each to their own I suppose ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 32 minutes ago, AdamRam said: Just words...you will be quoting the sticks and stones verse next. Glad you and your friends find it acceptable, each to their own I suppose ? Ok righteous one. Give yourself a pat on the back for never once using any language that someone may find offensive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheikh n Bake Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 16 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: Using the N word? Depends if it was persistent or just a one of occasion. If you think any football fan using the N word even once to describe anyone on the football pitch is ok, you're wrong. Please don't ever come to Pride Park again. You're not welcome. From all non-racist DCFC fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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