Stive Pesley Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, i-Ram said: You discount them like they don’t matter, just the same as Momentum and the Leadership To clarify though - you can't interchange Momentum with the membership. They are not the same thing. Momentum has around 40,000 members, whereas the party membership is said to be half a million. Not even a 10% overlap I'm a party member but i've no interest in joining Momentum, and I don't consider them a useful endeavour. Most people aren't activists - they are just people who care about having a more caring and inclusive society. That said - I do recognise the huge disconnect between the membership (largely remain voters) and the segment of traditional Labour voters we lost (who are not formal members and think we should leave the EU) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 29 minutes ago, i-Ram said: You want an exclusive members club. I get it. The Labour Party is open to everyone. All those members who pay in should choose their leader. Nothing exclusive about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said: To clarify though - you can't interchange Momentum with the membership. They are not the same thing. Momentum has around 40,000 members, whereas the party membership is said to be half a million. Not even a 10% overlap I'm a party member but i've no interest in joining Momentum, and I don't consider them a useful endeavour. Most people aren't activists - they are just people who care about having a more caring and inclusive society. That said - I do recognise the huge disconnect between the membership (largely remain voters) and the segment of traditional Labour voters we lost (who are not formal members and think we should leave the EU) Shock horror...... And you are still not listening to your grass roots support. Fight the good fight comrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 1 hour ago, GboroRam said: I want a party that stands for what the members want, not what the MPs want (which often is to line their pockets). I get that, it makes sense. The only proviso / question / flaw even, is that it is an MP who represents constituency and it’s voters. And voters are not necessarily party members so in a sense the MP’s need a voice with some clout within the party as they tend to be more aware of what real people outside the party enclave are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 18 minutes ago, jono said: I get that, it makes sense. The only proviso / question / flaw even, is that it is an MP who represents constituency and it’s voters. And voters are not necessarily party members so in a sense the MP’s need a voice with some clout within the party as they tend to be more aware of what real people outside the party enclave are saying. Can't represent everyone. Has to represent a vision for the future. I want my MPs to promote the vision for the future that the members of the party agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 2 hours ago, GboroRam said: I want a party that stands for what the members want, not what the MPs want (which often is to line their pockets). Bit of double standards there aint there.. When it came to Brexit you wanted the exact opposite. You were quite happy to go with what the MPs (who wanted to line their pockets), wanted then and not the members (us poor old electorate who were all idiots). Luckily those idiots made those MPs redundant for their arrogance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 8 minutes ago, Angry Ram said: Bit of double standards there aint there.. When it came to Brexit you wanted the exact opposite. You were quite happy to go with what the MPs (who wanted to line their pockets), wanted then and not the members (us poor old electorate who were all idiots). Luckily those idiots made those MPs redundant for their arrogance. Not really. I wanted a second referendum to see if the public still wanted to go through with Brexit now we know a bit more about what it entails. And I said I still think the vote will be for leave. And the best thing I could see having been done would be a lot of prepwork for leaving, to enable the UK to be more self sufficient and less reliant on deals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 1 hour ago, GboroRam said: Can't represent everyone. Has to represent a vision for the future. I want my MPs to promote the vision for the future that the members of the party agree. Also logical, but if your parties vision is too narrow then its appeal might shrink to the point that it becomes too small to be effective. If the parties vision making stems from a too homogeneous a view it never gets freshened up or challenged. Broad church and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevin Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 I have been spending quite a time looking at the fallout from the G.E. .The gist of things from the winning side is definitely an appetite for a no deal Brexit. Obviously this is not the case from the other side of the coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, King Kevin said: I have been spending quite a time looking at the fallout from the G.E. .The gist of things from the winning side is definitely an appetite for a no deal Brexit. Obviously this is not the case from the other side of the coin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 2 hours ago, GboroRam said: Can't represent everyone. Has to represent a vision for the future. I want my MPs to promote the vision for the future that the members of the party agree. The other thing is that unless the party is very small and select in its thinking then the party won’t all agree to everything .. I know I kind of said that before.... but without any party political hat on I think that is why labour is so troubled at the moment. JC existed very happily in a larger Labour Party, he was an MP had his points to make and made them in the House of Commons. That party had wings that both flapped. The current party (even if you agree with it) doesn’t want to tolerate or want a rightish (for labour) member in its ranks at all. Blairites are demonised and targeted for deselection, rather than tolerated as the awkward squad with maybe a point to make that might be useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 All this talk of Momentum and their fringe influence on the membership reminds me that for every yin there is a yang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 50 minutes ago, King Kevin said: I have been spending quite a time looking at the fallout from the G.E. .The gist of things from the winning side is definitely an appetite for a no deal Brexit. Obviously this is not the case from the other side of the coin. Very strange considering they have voted someone into power that they know already has a deal in place and would also have the majority to get that deal through Parliament. I'm an ardent Leaver and voted Conservative but think a sensible deal suits both parties more than no deal. Wanted no deal leaving on the table as a bargaining chip though and as a last resort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevin Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 20 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Very strange considering they have voted someone into power that they know already has a deal in place and would also have the majority to get that deal through Parliament. I'm an ardent Leaver and voted Conservative but think a sensible deal suits both parties more than no deal. Wanted no deal leaving on the table as a bargaining chip though and as a last resort. Didn't have much choice ,we didn't have a Brexit candidate but even if we had I don't think it was worth the risk of splitting the leave vote .Half a loaf is better than no loaf .I personally voted to leave in 2016 with no deal would still like no deal now to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 9 minutes ago, King Kevin said: Didn't have much choice ,we didn't have a Brexit candidate but even if we had I don't think it was worth the risk of splitting the leave vote .Half a loaf is better than no loaf .I personally voted to leave in 2016 with no deal would still like no deal now to be honest. Fair enough, no deal was always the default safety net for me. What benefits do you think there are from no deal that we could not have negotiated towards if we hadnt been messing around for the last 3 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevin Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Just now, G STAR RAM said: Fair enough, no deal was always the default safety net for me. What benefits do you think there are from no deal that we could not have negotiated towards if we hadnt been messing around for the last 3 years? The biggest one for me is saving £39 billion ,also with our trade deficit I don't think we would have to wait long before we got the very best deal possible. With both Germany and France having issues can't see them wanting their BMW's, Audi's ,Peugeot's etc sitting in the docks and with tariffs on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 13 minutes ago, King Kevin said: The biggest one for me is saving £39 billion ,also with our trade deficit I don't think we would have to wait long before we got the very best deal possible. With both Germany and France having issues can't see them wanting their BMW's, Audi's ,Peugeot's etc sitting in the docks and with tariffs on them. But do you not think if we left with no deal that the EU would be looking to recoup that £39bn in other ways ie tariffs that would permanently affect us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevin Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Just now, G STAR RAM said: But do you not think if we left with no deal that the EU would be looking to recoup that £39bn in other ways ie tariffs that would permanently affect us? They would try of course but with a massive trade deficit the ball is well and truly in our court .Germany has just recorded it'e eleventh consecutive negative month for growth .I can't imagine they would be looking forward to making up some of our lost contributions .Time to play hardball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 16 minutes ago, King Kevin said: They would try of course but with a massive trade deficit the ball is well and truly in our court .Germany has just recorded it'e eleventh consecutive negative month for growth .I can't imagine they would be looking forward to making up some of our lost contributions .Time to play hardball. I'm yet to see a decent argument against this point to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uptherams Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: Fair enough, no deal was always the default safety net for me. What benefits do you think there are from no deal that we could not have negotiated towards if we hadnt been messing around for the last 3 years? Same. But I still hope and think we will go the Singapore route overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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