The Politics Thread 2019

[Curtains]

Just now, alexxxxx said:

Blocked by their own party. ERG voted against Brexit for heaven's sake.

No not correct 

Labour have whipped and voted against the deal every time has have the SNP and the DUP etc 

Dont give me that as many of the ERG including Johnson and Mogg and Raab voted for the deal on the 3rd vote. 

It failed by 50 votes 

Labour have over 200 MPs

[McRamFan]

Try argue with facts @Curtains

[Curtains]

4 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

Try argue with facts @Curtains

That’s not the 3rd vote is it. 

That failed by 58 I think. 

[Curtains]

11 minutes ago, eddie said:

You seem to have it in your mind that I am a Corbyn fanboy. Nothing could be further than the truth - I have been, all my life, extremely liberal in outlook. The trouble with that is, to anyone who aligns themselves with the current state of the Conservative Party, everything slightly left of Attila The Hun is Marxism by comparison.

Ok Steady Eddie 

[BaaLocks]

22 minutes ago, Curtains said:

They are blocked at every turn by a party that wants to stay in a customs union and a single market and wants referendum and an election .

Wow that incompetence 

 

You put Milliband down as some raging Trot but this is what he said in 2014 about an in/out referendum. 

"I am not going to follow others in saying that we should commit to spending the next three years focusing on an EU referendum in 2017, when we have so many other things to sort out in this country and we need businesses to invest here. It is not the priority for the country."

Think he pretty much nailed that one.

[eddie]

8 minutes ago, Curtains said:

They are blocked at every turn by a party that wants to stay in a customs union and a single market and wants referendum and an election .

Wow that incompetence 

 

Where on the referendum paper did it say "No to a customs union"? It didn't. It only became a rallying point during the 2017 general election, when the Tories issued that as one of their "Red lines".

Remember the run-up to the referendum? When Fox et al said that a deal with the EU would be the "Easiest Deal ever"? Remember when they said that there would be no change whatsoever with respect to how we trade with the EU?

Don't you think it's rather pathetic to blame the opposition parties for a government being unable to deliver on their manifesto promises when that government cannot even get their own party to support their policies? Even when they bribe another party with around a billion pounds found under the "Magic Money Tree"? When members of the cabinet cannot support them? When the person who was the Brexit minister had the temerity to vote against the agreement THAT HE BLOODY WELL NEGOTIATED?

You are a typical Tory - your principles are up for sale, you will sell your own grandmother for a pound, and you will then blame somebody else for your own inadequacies.

[Curtains]

 

2 minutes ago, eddie said:

Where on the referendum paper did it say "No to a customs union"? It didn't. It only became a rallying point during the 2017 general election, when the Tories issued that as one of their "Red lines".

Remember the run-up to the referendum? When Fox et al said that a deal with the EU would be the "Easiest Deal ever"? Remember when they said that there would be no change whatsoever with respect to how we trade with the EU?

Don't you think it's rather pathetic to blame the opposition parties for a government being unable to deliver on their manifesto promises when that government cannot even get their own party to support their policies? Even when they bribe another party with around a billion pounds found under the "Magic Money Tree"? When members of the cabinet cannot support them? When the person who was the Brexit minister had the temerity to vote against the agreement THAT HE BLOODY WELL NEGOTIATED?

You are a typical Tory - your principles are up for sale, you will sell your own grandmother for a pound, and you will then blame somebody else for your own inadequacies.

There is only me. 

Hell im the only Tory voter in the UK. 

Bloody Reds in the bed. 

 

[maxjam]

15 minutes ago, alexxxxx said:

Blocked by their own party. ERG voted against Brexit for heaven's sake.

Because its not really Brexit is it.  You are allowed to vote against one Brexit deal whilst still being pro-Brexit.

The real problem is May had two years to sort this out and presented only one (bad) option (apart from no deal and they keep blocking that).  I'm pro-leave but I'd knock that deal back as well.

[McRamFan]

2 minutes ago, Curtains said:

That’s not the 3rd vote is it. 

That failed by 58 I think. 

The 3rd vote was not a 3rd vote, May had amended the deal from vote 1 and 2, which could not do as it was different from the deal agreed with the EU.  ERG where soo scared that they would be shafted and some backed the PM, other tories flipped because they didn't want BJ in charge. 

However sensible people, like Ken Clark, saw that it was an end run around, and voted against it.

It's funny how the tories and labour can change their minds, yet they are not brave enough to test that with the public. FYI, if there is NOT a referendum, on the final deal, that will be the death of democracy.  Also a decade of litigation.

Anyway, it only takes 1 country tonight, and we will be out with no deal on Friday.  So keep your English Sparkling on ice, you might be having a party on Friday.

[Curtains]

3 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Because its not really Brexit is it.  You are allowed to vote against one Brexit deal whilst still being pro-Brexit.

The real problem is May had two years to sort this out and presented only one (bad) option (apart from no deal and they keep blocking that).  I'm pro-leave but I'd knock that deal back as well.

Well you won’t get Brexit

[BaaLocks]

1 minute ago, maxjam said:

I'm pro-leave but I'd knock that deal back as well.

Then you are remain.

Just about the only thing that May has said of sense in the past few weeks is that since Parliament voted against no-deal as an option and the EU have made it clear the deal will not change there are only two options on the table. Accept the deal or revoke Article 50.

Simples.

[Curtains]

8 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

The 3rd vote was not a 3rd vote, May had amended the deal from vote 1 and 2, which could not do as it was different from the deal agreed with the EU.  ERG where soo scared that they would be shafted and some backed the PM, other tories flipped because they didn't want BJ in charge. 

However sensible people, like Ken Clark, saw that it was an end run around, and voted against it.

It's funny how the tories and labour can change their minds, yet they are not brave enough to test that with the public. FYI, if there is NOT a referendum, on the final deal, that will be the death of democracy.  Also a decade of litigation.

Anyway, it only takes 1 country tonight, and we will be out with no deal on Friday.  So keep your English Sparkling on ice, you might be having a party on Friday.

No mate. The EU needs us more than we need them. 

They need our cash. 

PS There is a difference between the withdrawal agreement and the future agreement 

[maxjam]

1 minute ago, BaaLocks said:

Then you are remain.

Just about the only thing that May has said of sense in the past few weeks is that since Parliament voted against no-deal as an option and the EU have made it clear the deal will not change there are only two options on the table. Accept the deal or revoke Article 50.

Simples.

If those are the only 2 options, I'd choose a third ?

Crash out, no deal. Or at the very least threaten it to restart negotiations.

[Curtains]

20 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

You put Milliband down as some raging Trot but this is what he said in 2014 about an in/out referendum. 

"I am not going to follow others in saying that we should commit to spending the next three years focusing on an EU referendum in 2017, when we have so many other things to sort out in this country and we need businesses to invest here. It is not the priority for the country."

Think he pretty much nailed that one.

Maybe 

But parliament voted for a referendum 

[BaaLocks]

Just now, Curtains said:

No mate. The EU needs us more than we need them. 

They need our cash. 

Oft quoted but seldom evidenced. Two things have happened in every trade war in history.

One, both sides suffer. Two, the one most isolated suffers more.

There is little that we produce that any EU country could not source elsewhere, if needed. There is much the EU produces that the UK could not easily source easily elsewhere. We are a big market to the EU, the EU is a bigger market to us - just by sheer numbers of population, GDP and percantage share of that.

UK GDP = $2.2 trillion, EU GDP (minus UK) = $16.3 trillion - keeping it basic, how can a market eight times the size of ours be in the weaker position? It's like saying Man Utd must have lower gate revenues than us - it just doesn't stand even the most basic of investigation.

Cars is the example used most often - yes Germans want to sell us their cars, but if we were unable to buy cars from within the EU and found ourselves limited to American and Japanese we'd feel the pain more than the EU car sellers.

[BaaLocks]

9 minutes ago, maxjam said:

If those are the only 2 options, I'd choose a third ?

Crash out, no deal. Or at the very least threaten it to restart negotiations.

If you're going to carry a gun you'd better be prepared to use it. Everyone bandies no deal as an option without even considering the implications - just look up the WTO tariff rates and think if any nation could be prepared to cut their nose off to spite their face that much.

But it doesn't matter - Parliament has taken that option off the table. It can't happen, and you didn't even get to decide it.

[Curtains]

8 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Oft quoted but seldom evidenced. Two things have happened in every trade war in history.

One, both sides suffer. Two, the one most isolated suffers more.

There is little that we produce that any EU country could not source elsewhere, if needed. There is much the EU produces that the UK could not easily source easily elsewhere. We are a big market to the EU, the EU is a bigger market to us - just by sheer numbers of population, GDP and percantage share of that.

UK GDP = $2.2 trillion, EU GDP (minus UK) = $16.3 trillion - keeping it basic, how can a market eight times the size of ours be in the weaker position? It's like saying Man Utd must have lower gate revenues than us - it just doesn't stand even the most basic of investigation.

Cars is the example used most often - yes Germans want to sell us their cars, but if we were unable to buy cars from within the EU and found ourselves limited to American and Japanese we'd feel the pain more than the EU car sellers.

The EU could say just go tonight but they won’t. Because they are afraid if we leave it will cost them big team. 

[BaaLocks]

6 minutes ago, Curtains said:

The EU could say just go tonight but they won’t. Because they are afraid if we leave it will cost them big team. 

What we have set in motion is seriously damaging to all parties, just we would suffer more.

[Curtains]

2 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

What we have set in motion is seriously damaging to all parties, just we would suffer more.

I just don’t believe that.  

But hey we will never know now as odds are on General Election and ultimate betrayal of the 17.4 Million 

[BaaLocks]

7 minutes ago, Curtains said:

But odds are on ultimate betrayal of the 17.4 Million 

By the people who got them to vote for a web of lies, hokum and conjecture.

Personally, I would have no problem if the referendum had been well structured and the outcome clearly laid out, maybe with some defined trigger like a clear majority needed. I'm a Labour voter, I have lifelong experience of losing to votes I don't agree with. ?